Gotta offload I'd just spent an illogical three hours debating with 2 JWs
by Qcmbr 11 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
-
Qcmbr
..and in ten minutes I'll post something and avoid trigger finger posts
-
Satanus
I can imagine. I remember, as a jw, arguing w mormons - people from two different fantasy worlds arguing over them. Funny, really.
S
-
ellderwho
LOL@satanus
-
Qcmbr
Ok I've been meeting with a great JW guy who gives me a lot of personal time and for which I'm really greatful but tonight we reached new heights of circular argument and illogical religionists debate (I am guilty as much as he and his unbaptised study were.)
OK here are the main topics we slipped around:
1/ Revelation 1 verse 1 shows how revelation is received:
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
This was their scriptural reference to which I said so that was how I thought it happened too - i.e. modern day prophet. They said no this is how the GB receive info from God - I said so they talk to an angel and they said no they are led to interpret the scriptures. I asked how this fitted the above scripture which was plainly different. No cohesive answer (he went on to attack Jospeh Smith which is fine but not as a defence of the above.)
2/ GB are not prophets and are not inspired and get things absolutely wrong like 1914 would be start of Armageddon. I asked how they can be relied upon to be right now? They said the light was getting brighter. I asked if Jesus was leading them back prior to 1914 . Yes. Then why did He tell them incorrect stuff. Answer - circumcision was taught in NT but altered after new light. Marvellous. The GB now know more and can interpret scripture better.
3/ The teachings of the WT society are self evident from self taught study. We were discussing Genesis 1 and 2 - I said in my world there is a spiritual creation of the hosts of heaven - they said this referred to the army of stars in the heavens as taught in Psalms. I asked why they linked two utterly unlinked scriptures to provide a doctrinal teaching. They said that all scripture informs the rest of scripture (so apparently Genesis 2:1 was not clear until Psalms - poor Israelites) I suggested that they hadn't come to that understanding themselves but that they had learnt it from the WT interpretation. Denied. Pressed for a straight answer on did you come to that conclusion alone or from the magazine. Soliloqy about camping and watching beauty of stars but no answer. When pressed was asked to show them which watchtower taught this ('cos apparently Mormons back date and avidly read the WT.) Clever switch of burden of proof from them to me.
4/ 1914 - 1st WW marked end of Gentile Times. Young, unbaptised study took over point. 14 days of peace only since 1914 in world but prior to this whole periods of months without war. Me - prove it - him I read it at school and was taught it. Me should have had this website - http://www.warscholar.com/Timeline.html but instead just said he was talking rubbish. He pointed out that no war was ever so ferocious - I pointed out that Ghengis Khan and the American Civil War to name a few were easily as ferocious. He pointed out that 1914 marked the beginning of great advances in technology. I said technological advances have been getting faster ever since the Rennaisance and that the main weapons of the 1st WW were used in the American Civil War.
5/ That JWs stood out from the world because they would not fight hence they were the only one's chosen by God. I asked if God was a god of war. I asked if God was only a god of war for physiical Israel and not for spiritual Israel. Cain pointed out as an evil killer. Moses pointed out as a righteous killer. Comment made that only the JWs could claim that if everyone was a JW there would be no war - I countered by saying Mormons could (if they so desired ) claim the same thing - he said Mormons kill each other so even if everyone was Mormon there would still be war. Of course Mormons would disobey the prophet and kill each other as they apparently are having war in Utah right now. Me gives up on this statement - I did point out that I read the online SLTribune and suprisingly they haven't mentioned it.
6/ Jesus is only the mediator for the 144000, I thought it unfair that only white philadelphians got to be anointed, he pointed to Jews at the day of pentecost, I countered with all people must accept the 'way the truth and the life, no man cometheth unto the Father but by me' approach, countered by suggesting Jesus said twice that only 144000 would come to Father by him - didn't have time to find scriptures.
7/ Titbit of info - he said that the WT society was about to make a worldwide announcement condemning all other churches and that would make them stand out even more and that it was going to shake things up. Is this September's big announcement?????
8/ Argued God would select only JWs at Armageddon. Me tosh - he will judge people's hearts.
9/ Bible is not inerrant (his point!!!) I asked study if he had no bible could he have a relationship with God. Study eventually said yes. Asked why they then deify the bible as the only way to have a relationship with God. He said it tells you how to have that relationship - I pointed out that you can already have that relationship without books or by implication an organisation. They countered with why do you need BOM , PoGP and D & C and modern day prophets. I pointed out that I don't - none of them are my relationship with God. Books are books. Only when scripture is read by someone inspired can it be said to be the word of God - read by anyone else its just reading a book. Huge ding dong about Pearl Of Great Price and Egyptian God of Mer - I asked if he accepted an Egyptologist over a prophet - he said JS wasn't a prophet so he'd take the Egyptologist. I pointed to logic of men. He said you need to learn about it - I sideswipped by saying they totally ignore it for the Fall of Jerusalem except where it fits their interpretation.
10/ I pointed out that Mormons want you to ask God and IF God exists the burden of proof is upon him. They said God had already given proof in the bible. I asked which bible - the Catholic or Protestant one. They said the NWT , I said does that contain the spurious chapter about Jesus and the women caught in adultery? I said I'd just read an article which said that that section was not spurious at all but was removed by the Catholic church and then later reinstated. I said that it was just a modern day argument that it was spurious. I said that God clearly wasn't doing much to protect the basic fabric of the man made biblia - why claim he was. Was challeneged to provide evidence of bible contradictions - pointed out death of Judas - they said Judas hung himself then slipped out of noose onto the floor and his belly exploded making both scriptures correct. You can't argue against genius like that.
That's all I'm off to bed - I'm exhausted. -
headmath
Quote
7/ Titbit of info - he said that the WT society was about to make a worldwide announcement condemning all other churches and that would make them stand out even more and that it was going to shake things up. Is this September's big announcement?????
End quote
Not suprising . CT russell spoke quite a bit against the churches of his day. so did rutherford. I'd say let them make the announcment and may jehoover smash the WTS into tiny bits in his mercy.
-
Bonnie_Clyde
Titbit of info - he said that the WT society was about to make a worldwide announcement condemning all other churches and that would make them stand out even more and that it was going to shake things up. Is this September's big announcement?????
Are you referring to the tract announced in the September KM, something like, "The End of False Religion Is Near." Haven't seen the KM but saw this on a thread a few days ago.
-
jgnat
Yeah, yeah. And each of these royal proclamations results in hordes of Christendom's followers flocking from their churches in to the loving arms of the Society. Their words are not worth the paper it's written on.
As for circular reasoning, perhaps both of you need to step away from your bibles and talk about tangible, practical evidences for a while? Things you can touch and see.
-
Honesty
You can't cut the tree down by trimming the branches.
You cut the tree down by sawing through the trunk.
When you try to debate scriptures with a jw you are trimming the branches.
When you expose the Watchtower Society's false prophesies and flip flopping doctrines you are sawing through the trunk.
-
AK - Jeff
A very wise man once said;
"Though all things are possible - it is still impossible to reason with the unreasonable"
Jeff