Fact Jews Returned In 538 BC Kills Off Watchtower Chronology

by AlanF 54 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • scholar
    scholar

    Alan F

    There is no hypocrisy at all because celebrated WT scholars are merely stating the generally accepted fact that the Return happened in 537 BCE or in other words this observation of the biblical and secular evidence reflects current and past knowledge. What you claim is rather an extreme and fanatical view of simple biblical and secular facts that cannot be construed your dogmatic position. I know that your view would not be accepted by any serious-minded scholar because of the simple onservation that the year of the Return is of minimal importance but the fact of the Return is of significant historical and theological significance.

    The calculation of 537 BCE is not based upon speculation at all but on biblical and seclar evidence and these relevant facts are presented in WT publications over many decades. Jonsson himself acknowledges this because he offers no substantive criticism of the this date and its determination. Josephus has offers nothing that disproves that 537 BCE is the year for the Return and neither does Ezra.

    The facts that you say are incontrovertible are such only to youand like-minded apostates and are viewed somewhat differently by scholars. You really need to run your hypothesis past your guru Jonsson and see if he will include this new material in a future edition of his GTR for it to have any merit at all.

    What you need to understand first before tabulating the data is that there is considerable debate about when the first year of Cyrus should commence but in either event celebrated WT scholars have reconciled such views so that the Exiles returned home by the seventh month of 537BCE which recognizes the Finegan observation that the first year of Cyrus began 538/537 BCE.

    If you wish to examine the acceptance of 537 by the scholarly community then is amply demonstrated by using Google and you will have all the information you need.

    scholar JW

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    "celebrated WT scholars" ™ ???

    Again, I ask, Who are they?

    scholar: I was speaking with another of your Moore library afficionadoes just yesterday who remarked that perhaps the greatest impediment to general acceptance of the NWT was the anonymity of its writers. Surely the same must apply to all of this which you quote above and rely on so heavily?

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    There is no hypocrisy at all because celebrated WT scholars are merely stating the generally accepted fact that the Return happened in 537 BCE or in other words this observation of the biblical and secular evidence reflects current and past knowledge. What you claim is rather an extreme and fanatical view of simple biblical and secular facts that cannot be construed your dogmatic position. I know that your view would not be accepted by any serious-minded scholar because of the simple onservation that the year of the Return is of minimal importance but the fact of the Return is of significant historical and theological significance.

    Provide a secular reference to support your alleged "generally accepted fact that the Return happened in 537 BCE".

    The calculation of 537 BCE is not based upon speculation at all but on biblical and seclar evidence and these relevant facts are presented in WT publications over many decades. Jonsson himself acknowledges this because he offers no substantive criticism of the this date and its determination. Josephus has offers nothing that disproves that 537 BCE is the year for the Return and neither does Ezra.

    Provide a reference to a Watchtower publication that indicates that "the calculation of 537 BCE" is "not based upon speculation at all".

    The facts that you say are incontrovertible are such only to youand like-minded apostates and are viewed somewhat differently by scholars. You really need to run your hypothesis past your guru Jonsson and see if he will include this new material in a future edition of his GTR for it to have any merit at all.

    'scholar' imagines that Jonsson is some kind of 'guru' among those who don't accept Watchtower Society dogma. This springs from his JW mentality that everyone is a 'follower' of someone, and indicates his underlying inability to think for himself.

    What you need to understand first before tabulating the data is that there is considerable debate about when the first year of Cyrus should commence but in either event celebrated WT scholars have reconciled such views so that the Exiles returned home by the seventh month of 537BCE which recognizes the Finegan observation that the first year of Cyrus began 538/537 BCE.

    Regardless of any debate, the Watchtower Society accepts that Cyrus' first year (after accession year) was 538/7. Only 3 months of that year fell in 537, and none of them were Tishri. 'scholar' does not seem to understand what is meant when two consecutive years are mentioned when corelating a non-Gregorian year with the Gregorian calendar.

    If you wish to examine the acceptance of 537 by the scholarly community then is amply demonstrated by using Google and you will have all the information you need.

    'scholar' is yet to provide any evidence at all for 537, or against 538.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Well said, Jeffro.

    The fact that 'scholar' here continually fails to provide any facts whatsoever proves that he has none to provide. He has nothing to support the 537 date other than blustering claims that have no more foundation than do the Society's speculations. That is why he will not quote any Watchtower material, and is why he cannot post any references to anyone who supports the 537 date. Indeed, he constantly confirms his moniker, scholar pretendus stupidus maximus.

    AlanF

  • scholar
    scholar

    Alan F

    4634

    You continue to refuse to explain why Jonsson has not provided support for your grandiose claim and you fail to provide any scholarly support for 538 as the only possible year for the Return. Your failure to address these two fundamental issues proves that your claim is false and that your tabulation is a shonk. Celebrated WT scholars have indeed presented clear evidence in support of 537 and have also demonstrated competence in matters of calendation.

    scholar JW

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Scholar,

    You continue to refuse to explain why Jonsson has not provided support for your grandiose claim and you fail to provide any scholarly support for 538 as the only possible year for the Return.

    What does this have to do with the issue? Take this up with Carl Jonsson, not AlanF. He asked to to give, if you dared, a point by point refutation of his post above, which unhinges WTS chronology and you have singularly failed to do that. No amount of bluster on your part will draw attention from the fact that you have been unable to refute what AlanF has written.

    If you have an answer to his post that does not rely on his having to contact Carl Jonsson on your behalf, then spit it out man!

    HS

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    You continue to refuse to explain why Jonsson has not provided support for your grandiose claim and you fail to provide any scholarly support for 538 as the only possible year for the Return. Your failure to address these two fundamental issues proves that your claim is false and that your tabulation is a shonk. Celebrated WT scholars have indeed presented clear evidence in support of 537 and have also demonstrated competence in matters of calendation.

    Yet again, 'scholar' points an accusatory finger instead of simply providing the references that he claims exist. He asserts that AlanF's tabulation is a "shonk", but cannot say why. And he still cannot point to a non-speculative reference of the Society for proving 537.

    Stop trying to buy time, 'scholar'. Put up or shut up.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    At this point I think that all readers, including all JW lurkers, can see how incredibly stupid, evasive and downright dishonest JW defenders can be.

    Scholar pretendus brainus atrophidus here could easily post his own chronological tabulation if he had any facts to back up WTS chronology, but the fact that he cannot do so proves that he knows he has no facts. So all of his protestions and excuses are attempts to deceive himself into thinking that there is anything left to discuss. And of course, thirdwitness simply refused to deal with this issue at all.

    Case closed, Neil.

    AlanF

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    scholar pretendus foolus maximus said:

    : You continue to refuse to explain why Jonsson has not provided support for your grandiose claim

    I already told you, you fool: He did. You've even admitted that he did so in GTR4, p. 90, ftn.2.

    I've also told you that Jonsson agrees with my argument about Ezra and Josephus combining to pin the building of the Temple to 537, which contradicts the Society's completely unsupported claim of 536.

    I've also told you that Jonsson was unaware of Josephus' statement that the Temple rebuilding was begun in the 2nd month of Cyrus' 2nd year, until I told him about it late last winter.

    Furthermore, Jonsson's opinions about 538 as the year of the return of the Jews to Judah are irrelevant in view of the facts I've presented above. These facts are simple:

    (1) Ezra 1-3 shows that the Jews returned to Judah soon after Cyrus' edict of 538.

    (2) Ezra 3 states unambiguously that the Temple was begun in the 2nd month of the 2nd year after the Jews' return to Judah.

    (3) Josephus states unambiguously that the Temple was begun in the 2nd month of Cyrus' 2nd regnal year.

    Conclusion based on (1) - (3): The Jews returned in the autumn of 538. This conclusion follows directly and is not disputable.

    What is disputable is whether the statements in Ezra and by Josephus are reliable. However, we know very well why you refuse to discuss these potential problems.

    Finally, no matter what Jonsson's opinions are, they are irrelevant to you, as you've repeatedly stated. Therefore, it is painfully clear that your jabbering on about Jonsson is nothing more than a smokescreen, a red herring designed to draw attention away from your abject failure to bring to bear even one single fact in support of the Society's 537 date.

    : and you fail to provide any scholarly support for 538 as the only possible year for the Return.

    I don't need to. The facts speak for themselves.

    Now, I just received a new book that agrees with my assessment. Writing in The Origins of the 'Second' Temple: Persian Imperial Policy and the Rebuilding of Jerusalem (Equinox Publising Ltd., London, Oakville, 2005, p. 163) Diana Edelman states in comments on Isaiah 40-55):

    Cyrus as the Temple's Rebuilder: The claim that the temple foundation was initially re-laid during the second month of year 2 of Cyrus in Ezra 3.8-13 has almost certainly been motivated by a desire to demonstrate that the prediction found in Isa. 44.28 had been actualized in real time. . . Here, in Ezra 3.10-13, we explicitly have an account of the laying of the temple foundation during the reign of Cyrus.

    Edelman's comment, in conjunction with the known fact that Cyrus' 2nd year ran from Nisan, 537 through Adar, 536 B.C., clinches it.

    : Your failure to address these two fundamental issues

    LOL! Jonsson's opinions are hardly "fundamental" to the question of the date of the Jew's return. And I've only just begun to marshall further scholarly support for the 538 date. It will become apparent that all modern scholars support the date, and that no modern scholars support the 537 date.

    What is fundamental to your own claims is that you have completely failed to provide even one fact in support of the 537 date. Nor have you provided any scholarly support from modern scholars. Nor have you attempted to show exactly what the Watchtower Society has argued in favor of the date, because you know perfectly well that the Society has done nothing but speculate.

    : proves that your claim is false

    LOL!

    : and that your tabulation is a shonk.

    Then you go right ahead and provide your own tabulation -- one in accord with all known facts.

    But you'll never do it. You know you can't, because there is no way to reconcile the Society's claims with the facts.

    : Celebrated WT scholars have indeed presented clear evidence in support of 537

    Give the references.

    : and have also demonstrated competence in matters of calendation.

    Yeah, right. They can get some things right, but they've gotten a lot of things wrong. Like forgetting that there was no "zero year" so that their original date of 606 B.C. for Jerusalem's destruction had to be migrated to 607, and 536 had to be revised to 537.

    Talk about shonky! Your claims are the epitome of shonky, Neil.

    Here's a little more about how your "celebrated WT scholars" have been forced to change their dates over time:

    The 1943 book The Truth Shall Make You Free said on pages 151-2:

    It is well established that two years after the overthrow of Babylon in 538 B.C. by Darius the Mede and his nephew, Cyrus the Persian, the first year of Cyrus' exclusive rule began, which year was 536 B.C.

    Following this chronology, the October 15, 1943 Watchtower said on page 309:

    Two years later, in 536 B.C., Babylon's conqueror, King Cyrus, turned his attention to the matter of Jehovah's temple at Jerusalem and released the faithful remnant from Babylon, to return to Zion to rebuild the house of worship of the true and living God.

    So here we have not only a bunch of completely wrong dates, but they're wrong even with respect to one another by present Watchtower standards! Here, in 536 B.C., Cyrus turned his attention to the temple in Jerusalem and, in that very year, the Jews returned to Jerusalem. This shows that even "celebrated WT scholars" agreed for half the Watchtower Society's history that the Jews returned to Judah in the very same year that Cyrus issued his edict allowing the return! And so, these older "celebrated WT scholars" obviously agree with the basics of the argument that I and Jeffro have been setting forth, namely, that the Jews returned to Judah in the same year that Cyrus issued his edit, 538 B.C.

    AlanF

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    scholar pretendus mindus madeupus said in his post 1385:

    : if you search 537 by means of google you will notice that there is a general acceptance for 537 rather 538. So much for your childish nonsense.

    I challenged this moron many a time to present any kind of reasoning from any sources at all to support the 537 date, including reasoning from the websites that supposedly indicates a "general acceptance for 537". So far, nothing has been forthcoming.

    Since scholar pretendus is demonstrably too stupid and lazy to present any kind of evidence, I've taken him up on Googling for dates. I would Google for dates more often, but my wife tends to object to online dating.

    Anyway, I did Google searches for two sets of words: "jews return 538" and "jews return 537". These were for separate words, not strings. For 538 I got 77 pages returned and for 537 I got 78 pages returned. I suspect there are a lot more, but that's what Google returned with a simple search. I quit looking at the results at 10 pages.

    One thing became clearly evident: Not a single website was written by a recognized scholar, but by amateurs or authors writing for a popular audience. While many of the sites were scholarly to a certain extent, almost all were simple presentations of timelines or something like that. No discussion of the underlying historical data was attempted. Only one site had anything resembling an argument for its preferred date, and this was based entirely on the author's attempt to make sectarian arguments, which is of no value here.

    Another thing that became abundantly clear is that, even though none of the websites were from real scholars, the ones in favor of 538 were, on average, a good deal more scholarly than the ones in favor of 537. It appears to me that the sites that list 537 do so mainly because they referred to 19th century scholarly sources, whereas the sites that list 538 do so based on modern sources.

    I present two main categories of websites, ones that list 538 or 537. Within each major category, I break down the URL listings by whether they agree or disagree with accepted biblical and secular chronology, and whether they give the reasons for their listing of the particular date.

    WEBSITES THAT LIST 538

    These sites give a definite statement that the Jews returned in 538 B.C.

    Websites that agree with both biblical and secular chronology and state the reasons:

    NONE

    Websites that agree with both biblical and secular chronology and do not state the reasons:

    A CHRONOLOGY OF THE "TIMES OF THE GENTILES"
    Compiled by Lambert Dolphin
    http://www.ldolphin.org/Timesg.html

    The Jewish Agency for Israel
    http://www.jewishagency.org/JewishAgency/English/Jewish+Education/Jewish+History/3760+BCE+79+CE/Cyrus+Edict+Return+to+Jerusalem+to+Emergence.htm

    The Bible in Historical Perspective
    http://www.propadeutic.com/faith/history/exile.html

    3000 YEARS OF HISTORY IN JERUSALEM
    http://focusonjerusalem.com/Jewishhistory.html

    This Day in Jewish History
    http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/bhyom/hebrew/iyar.htm

    Temple Mount
    http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1273740

    The Origin and Fate of the Temples at Jerusalem
    http://www.geocities.com/athens/Forum/9991/thtemples.html

    Judaism after the Babylonian Exile
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/exile2.html

    Return from Babylon to Zion
    http://www.wujs.org.il/activist/learning/judaism/babylon.shtml

    Heritage Civilization and the Jews
    http://www.pbs.org/wnet/heritage/timeline2.html

    The Jewish Theological Seminary
    http://www.jtsa.edu/davidson/melton/standards/4.shtml

    The Captivity to the End of the Old Testament
    http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1027176

    Ted Thornton HUMANITIES II Sophomore Humanities
    http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/hebrew_bible_era_dates.php

    IMPORTANT DATES IN ANCIENT HEBREW HISTORY:
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_hisj.htm

    Chronological Reference
    http://mosaic.lk.net/timeline.html

    The Jewish World of Jesus: An Overview
    http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/jewishworldjesus.html

    Ezra
    http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1712&cxDatabase_databaseID=4&id=18

    JewishHistory.com
    http://www.jewishhistory.com/jh.php?id=Persian&content=Persian

    Jeremiah Was a False Prophet
    http://www.hotcom.net/users/shagbark/jeremiah.html

    A Map in Time
    http://gupress.gallaudet.edu/abramsintro2.html

    The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
    http://www.dinur.org/resources/resourceCategoryDisplay.aspx?categoryid=419&rsid=478

    Israel Science and Technology Homepage
    Brief History of Israel and the Jewish People
    http://www.science.co.il/Israel-history.asp

    Bar-Ilan University's Parashat Hashavua Study Center
    http://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/eng/vayikra/fle.html

    THE HISTORY OF ISRAEL
    http://www.focusmm.com/israel/is_hi_01.htm

    JewishHistory.com
    http://www.jewishhistory.com/jh.php?id=Persian&content=content/first_restoration

    The Jewish Theological Seminary
    http://www.jtsa.edu/community/parashah/archives/5764/nitsavimvayelekh.shtml

    CNN.com
    http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1998/israel/holy.land/

    wbur.org
    http://www.insideout.org/documentaries/jerusalem/land/timeline2.html

    Prophet Daniel, Jewish Exile, Antiochus Epiphanes
    http://www.geocities.com/ulrich_utiger/daniel.html

    The Holocaust, the Faithful, and Disengagement
    http://www.challenge-mag.com/88/Langfur.htm

    THE JEWISH RIGHT TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL
    http://www.think-israel.org/rose.land.html

    From Abraham to Intifada
    http://www.israelmybeloved.com/channel/history_prophecy/article/70

    The Catholic Encyclopedia: Judaism
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08399a.htm

    Chronology for the history of Israel and Judaism
    http://humwww.ucsc.edu/gweltaz/courses/bible/chrono.htm

    Jewish History Tables
    http://www.adath-shalom.ca/eb2bk.htm

    SeattleTimes.com Timeline
    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/israel/timeline/

    BecomingJewish.org
    http://www.becomingjewish.org/israel.html

    eDevotions for Growing Christians
    http://www.growingchristians.org/dfgc/edevo/denying_rights.html

    WEBSITES THAT LIST 537

    These sites give a definite statement that the Jews returned in 537 B.C.

    Websites that disagree with biblical chronology and do not state the reasons:

    Jerusalem the Endless Crusade
    http://www.centuryone.com/hstjrslm.html

    Return to the Promised Land
    http://score.rims.k12.ca.us/activity/maccabees/pages/Return.html

    Main Events In The History Of Jerusalem
    http://jeru.huji.ac.il/jeru/timetable.html

    Alpha and Omega Ministries
    http://www.aomin.org/1914chron.html

    Point of no return
    http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.com/2006/05/precarious-state-of-irans-jews.html

    Kosher Service
    http://www.ko-kosher-service.org/jerusalem.htm

    Wikipedia: Babylonian captivity
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity

    Wikipedia: Persian Jews
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews

    JUDAISM AND CHRISTIANITY
    http://chss2.montclair.edu/kellyd/ghoutbible.htm

    When was Jerusalem Destroyed?
    http://www.2001translation.com/607.htm

    Book of Haggai
    http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/haggai.htm

    Jerusalem
    http://www.crystalinks.com/jerusalem.html

    Answers.com
    http://www.answers.com/topic/jewish-refugees

    Cyrus Charter of Human Rights Cylinder
    http://www.farsinet.com/cyrus/

    The Weight of History
    http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jewhis4.htm

    Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years
    http://abbc.net/islam/english/books/jewhis/jewhisindex.htm

    Virtual Tour - The Western Wall Time Line Jerusalem
    http://www.inisrael.com/tour/jer/vt_western_wal_tl.htm

    SECTION 11: The Old Testament and Its Authors
    http://www.usu.edu/markdamen/1320Hist&Civ/chapters/11OT.htm

    Daniel's Fourth Kingdom
    http://users.bigpond.net.au/bkolberg/chapters/chapter14.html

    A Portrait of Cyrus II
    http://www3.tky.3web.ne.jp/~jafarr/A%20Portrait%20of%20Cyrus2.html

    Chancellor's Parashah Commentary
    http://www.jtsa.edu/community/parashah/archives/5754/vaera.shtml

    The Destruction and Rebuilding of the Temple of King Solomon
    http://www.yorkriteofcalifornia.org/royalarch/raeduc005.htm

    MESOPOTAMIA
    http://chss2.montclair.edu/kellyd/ghout1meso.htm

    Aria generation
    http://dekita.org/orchard/Aria_generation/

    Bible references to censuses and time table on segment of Hebrew history
    http://web.utk.edu/~dhasting/pop462_bibrefs1.htm

    Evolution Encyclopedia Vol. 3
    http://evolution-facts.org/Ev-V3/3evlch39.htm

    Websites that disagree with biblical chronology and state the reasons:

    Prophecy and Current Events
    http://www.prophecyandcurrentevents.com/thglory/invade02.htm

    Websites that disagree with both biblical and secular chronology and do not state the reasons:

    When Was Judah's 70-Year Babylonian Captivity?
    http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/captivity.html

    JERUSALEM CALENDAR
    http://www.icra.it/MG/mg08/Jerusalem_calendar.html

    Jewish Living Publications
    http://www.ajc.org/site/apps/nl/content3.asp?c=ijITI2PHKoG&b=843137&ct=1044443

    What Saith the Scripture?
    http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Timeline/98.Yr.of.Apocalypse.2.Text.html

    JewishEncyclopedia.com
    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=496&letter=C

    Why We Need Israel
    http://scheinerman.net/judaism/sermons/fuchs-3.html

    The Book of Ezra
    http://www.biblecentre.org/commentaries/ar_15_ot_overview_ezra.htm

    History of the Jews
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08386a.htm

    Jesus Christ, our Temple
    http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:dnxS_NWf4K8J:www.geocities.com/genebrooks/haggai.pdf+jews+return+537&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=38

    Mid_East Realities
    http://www.middleeast.org/forum/fb-public/1/19.shtml

    Symbol of All Hopes
    http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/print.php?id=6494

    ON THE NEW TESTAMENT
    http://members.aol.com/acadac/talks/nt-intro.htm

    The Bible: Proofs of Its
    Supernatural Origin
    http://www.gospeloutreach.net/bibsuper.html

    The Building of the Second Temple
    http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_building_wright.html

    Daniel: Historical & Chronological Comments (XII)
    http://www.biblicalhorizons.com/ch/ch7_11.htm

    Pre-Christian Background
    http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/7224/Rick/otbg.htm

    Websites that disagree with both biblical and secular chronology and state the reasons:

    NONE

    My conclusion, based on looking at the above sites, is that scholar pretendus mindus madeupus has a very good reason for refusing to list the websites he claims support the 537 date, along with the reasons for supporting the date: they give no reasons, and they are not generally scholarly.

    Of course, arguing the validity of any matter based on the quantity of Google hits that appear to support some conclusion is worse than useless -- it's downright stupid. Yet, that is what scholar pretendus is reduced to, since he has no scholarly arguments for his case.

    AlanF

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