Hi, i hope i can clarify this as i was unsure if what i had been saying was correct.
My wife, her friend and i got into a discussion about child abuse. I mentioned that if a child said that a brother had been touching them on a number of occassions in an inappropriare way and you then brought it to the attention of the elders; They chat with the individual concerned and are happy that this person hasnt done anything despite the fact that the child explained in detail exactly what he did. What would you do?
My wife and her friend both agreed that they would take it further and go to the social services if they werent happy with the judgement by the elders. I then said to them, even though the elders , your spiritually guided councellers had already dealt with the situation. They both then said that if they strongly felt that their son or dauhgter had been abused, they would take it further.
I then told them that they would be either marked or reproved for doing this. They both recoiled back in horror saying i was talking total rubbish. I then mentioned to them that that appeared to be the case on the panorama programme a few years back and that after the programme had been shown , a letter was read to the congregations in the uk saying that in view of the programme that had been aired last week, it was the policy of the society to follow the bible command that there had to be 2 witnesses to bring a case against the accused.
They both said, "so you mean to tell me that if i wasnt happy about the way the elders dealt with the situation and i went to the social services that i could be reproved" . I said pretty much so, They just kept saying that was rubbish and my wife wanted to even ask the PO if that was the case. I suddenly realised that the coversation was getting a little bit over my head and said i wasnt completely sure if that was the case but at the very least they would be watched because they had gone outside of what the elders had decided.
So, can anyone please clarify for me if a person can be reproved, marked or watched by the elders for doing this?
Thanks
Evergreen
Question on the handling of child abuse by the elders.
by evergreen 6 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
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evergreen
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blondie
Officially, would the WTS say that this person should be reproved for reporting possible child abuse to the proper secular authorities? No.
Would the elders do this on their own? Sure.
Would every elder body do this? Not necessarily.
Would the WTS do this unofficially? Sure.
The thing they have to remember is the elders are not trained or qualified to determine what is abuse; nor do they have access to the investigative techniques or equipment that the secular authorities do; nor do they have access to whether this person has been accused or charged before.
I would never go to an elder for a consultation on heart surgery nor would I want to look up and see him with a scalpel in hand in the operation room (unless he is a qualfied surgeon).
Blondie
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Mysterious
You certainly wouldn't be viewed as theocratic and I'm sure many would privately mark you even if they were not encouraged to do so by the elders. There would be a lot of talk about bringing reproach on the organization/God's name (it seems they interchange these two bleh).
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Lady Lee
blondie's response was bang on
My wife, her friend and i got into a discussion about child abuse. I mentioned that if a child said that a brother had been touching them on a number of occassions in an inappropriare way and you then brought it to the attention of the elders; They chat with the individual concerned and are happy that this person hasnt done anything despite the fact that the child explained in detail exactly what he did. What would you do?
If the accused denied the allegations then it becomes the word of an adult over the word of a child. The victim would need two witnesses to override the denial. The victim and family will be told not to discuss this with other members of the cong because they would then be guilty of slander and causing divisions and would be reproved in some manner.
The elders are required to call Bethel to find out if they live in a province or state that mandates reporting. While publicly the WTS says they will encourage victims to report to the authorities where mandated, in reality they would do whatever required to make sure no one knows about the abuse (it might bring shame on Jehovah and his org).
What this means is that the abuser is off scot free and the victim is gagged from talking about it with others in the cong. If the victim goes to the authorities and accused is arrested then the victim can then again be reproved. There have been a few cases where the victim went to the authorities and the accused was found guilty while the JWs sat on the accused's side of the court and support him while the victims and their families were shunned.
What this also means is that since no one knows that an abuse has occurred people are not aware that an accusation has been made and that they should protect their children from this person.
My wife and her friend both agreed that they would take it further and go to the social services if they werent happy with the judgement by the elders. I then said to them, even though the elders , your spiritually guided councellers had already dealt with the situation. They both then said that if they strongly felt that their son or dauhgter had been abused, they would take it further.
Good for both of them
I then told them that they would be either marked or reproved for doing this. They both recoiled back in horror saying i was talking total rubbish. I then mentioned to them that that appeared to be the case on the panorama programme a few years back and that after the programme had been shown , a letter was read to the congregations in the uk saying that in view of the programme that had been aired last week, it was the policy of the society to follow the bible command that there had to be 2 witnesses to bring a case against the accused.
Again you are correct.
They both said, "so you mean to tell me that if i wasnt happy about the way the elders dealt with the situation and i went to the social services that i could be reproved" . I said pretty much so, They just kept saying that was rubbish and my wife wanted to even ask the PO if that was the case. I suddenly realised that the coversation was getting a little bit over my head and said i wasnt completely sure if that was the case but at the very least they would be watched because they had gone outside of what the elders had decided.
Exactly.
Now let's add a little more info to this.
The accused has denied the allegations and the elders say they can't do anything. They place the gag order on the victim and the family. Supposedly the victim is free and clear of all charges. The accused is now free to find another victim. Even in cases where the accused has been tried and found guilty in a court of law, has served the time awarded and is back out. He will have to go door to door supposedly with another JW. But this other JW may not know the history of this person.
The accused moves to another cong. His records are sent so the elders know the accusations and the trial but they cannot notify the cong to be careful. He shows up at the pre-service meeting and is the only male present. He has no choice but to take the lead.. Four sisters and 1 child show up. He takes the lead and divides the group up - the four sisters are paired up and he is left with the child. Would you want him taking your child to do some RVs? The average JW will have no clue about his past.
Another scenario?
Brother Accused is single and decides it is time to get married. New Sister and her 2 daughters have just moved into the cong. New Sister is looking good and they start seeing each other and decide to marry. The elders cannot tell her about his history of abuse. I'll let your imagination take over from there.
One more scenario?
Brother Accused sees a mom in the book study who has a child. Her son has no father but needs a male role model so she approaches Brother Accused about having a study with her son. He eagerly accepts.
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evergreen
Thanks for making that a bit clearer for me folks.
Thanks for the scenarios lady lee. It scares me to think how easily each of these scenarios can happen so easily.
It is no wonder that there is so much discussion on this topic. At least i have given the Mrs and her friend some food for thought.
It is just short of incredible the way the society deals with this problem. Whats more as Blondie says they are not qualified for this type of accusation and it should be left to the professional social services who are experienced and qualified in such important matters. -
Lady Lee
It is just short of incredible the way the society deals with this problem. Whats more as Blondie says they are not qualified for this type of accusation and it should be left to the professional social services who are experienced and qualified in such important matters.
Exactly. In their crude attempts to deal with the accusations some victims have been forced to sit in a room with their abuser and 3 elders and repeat her accusations and then listen to him deny it. The real slap in the face is that the elders say "sorry kid, your accusations can't be proven because you don't have two witnesses. Now go home with daddy and be quiet."
The elders have:
- retraumatized the victim
- let the accused off scot free
- forced the child to go home with their abuser knowing that now it will be worse than ever.
- given the accused carte blanche to continue the abuse and even to find new victims
When dealing with accusations of abuse by a victim professionals know there is a very well defined and strict protocol for questioning the victim to tell his or her story. The elders get in there and with their blundering contaminated the allegations.
sickening
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avengers
Dear Blondie and Lady Lee.
Thumbs up for the both of you.
You hit the nail right on the head.
love ya.
Andy