Evolution - and the Long Overdue Synthesis

by metatron 15 Replies latest jw friends

  • metatron
    metatron

    When you look at the evolution vs creation controversy, the impression you get is similar to Hezbollah and the

    Israelis encountering their differences! On the one hand, we have the view that a bearded fellow on a throne specifically

    created mosquitos and guinea worms - while the opposition insists that irreproduceable phenomena ( breeding reptiles

    into birds or monkeys into men) are utterly "random" and the product of molecules bumping into each other.

    It simply amazes me that things have gone on so long this way with no synthesis or reasonable view in the middle:

    less than Hairy Thunderer, more than unguided billiard balls.

    There are a few brave souls trying to do this - James Shapiro ( U of Chicago) or Gary Schwartz come to mind.

    Since nonlocal quantum effects have been confirmed ( by the Bell and Aspect experiments), there is nothing wrong

    with speculation about what might pop into being as the result of distant guidance. I appreciate Schwartz's point

    that "random" can't be precisely defined since anything could be defined as non random ( like digits in Pi).

    We are also exploited by creation myths like the Big Bang - in which all the regulated order of physics emerges

    from a titanic explosion zillions of years ago. And this is better than Tiamat and Marduk?

    Let's put a name on it: Pantheism - God is everywhere and everything and we're all a part of "Him". It's what

    Einstein believed, as well as Spinoza and Dyson and countless other thinkers. It is the natural conclusion

    of Intelligent Design ideas, rather than a quick trip to the Bible. Hello, Awake?!

    And while we're at it, don't "Sagan" me with "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". All claims require

    proof and asking for more "proof" is merely an excuse to deny ideas that are inconvenient. They're proved or not

    proved.

    This synthesis of the two opposites is long overdue.

    metatron

  • Arthur
    Arthur

    There is a writer who I really like. His name is Michael Shermer. He writes a monthly column in Scientific American Magazine and is the editor of Skeptic Magazine. He has written quite a bit about the debates between creationists and evolutionists.

    He has written extensively on what he refers to as the "Either Or Fallacy". Although not directly applying this to the evolution debate, he states how people get into the trap of painting a question as something that must only have two possible answers. So often, people aren't able or willing to consider a third, or even fourth possible answer. The creation debate is one of those issues.

    Many creationists stubbornly ignore the overwhelming evidence of biological evolution over the past 100 million years, and try to ignore all of the transitional fossils that have been discovered over the last couple of decades Many of them claim that to believe in evolution is a blasphemy, and a rejection of divine creation. (it's interesting that the evolutionary process of species, as currently understood; doesn't even contradict the book of Genesis - something that many fundamentalists ignore)

    And then, many evolutionists will often claim that if you acknowledge the evolutionary evidence, then you must also buy into the "big bang" theory and reject the existence of God

    No wonder these two groups keep butting their heads up against each other. What makes anyone believe that God could not have used the evolutionary process as a manifestation of creation? Why is that impossible? It's interesting that Pope John Paul II stated that he believed that this was a strong possbility. He wasn't willing to buy into the "either-or fallacy". But, of course, when the Pope stated this publicly, he was ridiculed by people on both sides of the debate. Fundamentalists called him a pagan who had been hoodwinked by Darwinism. Evolutionists accused him of just wanting to "have his cake and eat it too".

    The "either-or fallacy" is still alive and well in this debate. However, I do think that most of the stubborn denial is on the shoulders of fundamentalists who totally reject even the possibility of evolution. Perhaps all that is needed to the cure this stubborn denial, is a little open-mindedness, and a library card.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Synthesis of these two theories should be worked on in a serious way, not just on the theoretical level, but in the laboratories and in the field. While materialism is a great place from which to start, why end research there?

    S

  • metatron
    metatron

    excellent thoughts......

    It bothers me when I read articles such as the Awake that project God into every bacteria - and then jump to the conclusion that Genesis

    is the whole story. Intelligent design books do this too - and its a big non sequitor. Why not instead conclude that there is no God that

    is separate from creation and simply accept that you're seeing God in every bacteria, right now. The very idea of an anthropomorphic

    Creator makes no sense, modeled as it is on humans who can only think about one thing at a time, in a focused serial fashion.

    There's a cartoon that shows God answering an infinite number of 'prayer phones' with "Hello, this is God, can I put you on hold?"

    and then picking up the next. That sums up how silly these notions are. God is everywhere, all at once - and that's why atheism

    is often so attractive. After all, when does a fish take notice of the water - unless he can leave it? The world is perceived thru contrasts

    and if everything was the same shade of blue, we'd all be effectively blind.

    metatron

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    I attended a conference at Princeton U. over ten years ago which delt with "Converging Realities". Thinkers from all backgrounds came together to examine the chinks in each argument and where there were commonalities that could lead out of the fallacious debate that was on-going. It didn't get any front page news, but it was confirming to me that leaders of thought have long ago began a process of seeking truth over gaining advantage. Time will tell!

    Regarding the Isreali/Hisbolahh issue, radical Islam is as hellbent on gaining advantage as fundamentalist Christians. For the most part the latter has less violent avenues to get their political positions secured. I'd bet given the circumstances were reversed, Rev. Falwell would love to ship arms to a group of "feedom fighters" who would seek to drive the Musselmen into the sea! How do you spell "Crusuade"?

    carmel

  • moshe
    moshe

    We hear much discussion about Intelligent design/creation vs/ evolution. Little is said about many mass extinction events which made present life possible. If T-rex and his family tree had not been wiped out present humnan and mammalian life would not exist. If you believe in Intelligent design/creation, then you must accept that G-d was responsible for the extinction events that caused most of the life on Earth to be destroyed several times over. Or accept that blind chance caused these events and we are the product of random accidents in Nature. It's an ongoing process and the replacements for modern humans will certainly evolve after the next extinction event. That is, unless you believe that G-d will stop an asteroid collision for us, when he didn't do it for T-rex.

  • Twitch
    Twitch

    Cool thread

    I recall that part of my journey of belief after leaving the dubs long ago was pondering the possibilities of integrating dub beliefs with others in an attempt to resolve/replace said beliefs. Looking back, this lead to some interesting theories, one was the creation/evolution issue and the process was not unlike "diluting" dub beliefs with reason over time. I had believed in the dub version of creationism and though it didn't jive in my head, neither did the pure chance theory of evolution since I still believed in some form of God at the time, rather strongly as I recall. It made sense to me that one couldn't ignore the undeniable evidence of fossil records, carbon dating and the hard facts of science. To ignore such evidence is pure ignorance and though the dub world I was leaving was blissful there, I wanted more. Paradise lost.

    I reasoned that to create something required taking something in it's raw form and making it into what's in the mind's eye. The artist sees the sculpture within the rock, the musician hears the music within the notes. Perhaps all that is living is the physical manifestation of God, the art of it's mind and will with the universe as the canvas. Surely we came into being somehow and the creation account left so much to the imagination with no evidence or reasonable theories. How did we get here? How did God create us? Science sought the answers and compiled evidence based on hard facts and I liked the process and reality there. However, it was hard at the time to deny God entirely and believe that we are the result of pure chance. Einstein said "God does not play dice". I was inclined to agree with the man who revealed much about the rules that govern "Gods" universe, whether he actually exists as we think or not.

    Why not integrate the two? If God did exist, why is is so hard to think that evolution was his will in bringing us into being? Why does it have to be one extreme or the other? Why does it have be black and white? Us and them? Perhaps in time such theories will become more acceptable. Science itself has and will continue to evolve and much like ourselves, make mistakes, learn and progress towards higher understanding. Yes, at one time the earth was the centre of the universe and was flat but if it wasn't for science, we would still be holding onto outdated beliefs. Lets not forget that that religion in general has evolved as well, case in point being the progression from Mosaic law to that of Christ. From there have arisen many sects and doctrines that expand upon the foundation. There are things in both disciplines that still defy understanding but perhaps at some point there will be convergence. I know there are those who write on such subjects and I am not well read but enjoy the mental exercises. Belief is such a subjective thing and it's a shame to have to fight about who's right. Diversity and freedom of expression have both good and bad sides.

    I'm just glad to be able to exercise the freedom of thought. It should not be underestimated or taken for granted.

  • New Worldly Translation
    New Worldly Translation
    (it's interesting that the evolutionary process of species, as currently understood; doesn't even contradict the book of Genesis - something that many fundamentalists ignore)

    That's not strictly true as the order of creation in the bible is directly at odds with the order of biological evolution. For instance plants do not occur first in the fossil record like they do in the genesis account and the first flying creatures are not contemporaries of the first sea life, also there isn't a seperation of livestock and wild animal in the natural animal kingdom; that occurred over thousands of years as man slowly bred those animals for domestication. There are many other points but it's very clear that evolutionary biology doesn't agree with the bible account at any point.

    I suppose the answer as to why god couldn't use evolution as a means of creation is why would he? As a glorified petri dish experiment? The overwhelming evidence is that there is no pre-destination to life and it's pretty egotistical to think that the culmination of creation is us. Evolution offers a much more humble approach; we aren't the zenith of life, everything that has happened wasn't leading up to us. A slug in the garden is as evolved as we are.

    The reason the debate will go on is that scientists try to rejoin questions with answers. Saying a god did it isn't an answer.

  • Arthur
    Arthur
    That's not strictly true as the order of creation in the bible is directly at odds with the order of biological evolution. For instance plants do not occur first in the fossil record like they do in the genesis account and the first flying creatures are not contemporaries of the first sea life

    I see what you are saying. Actually, the two different creation accounts place the different creations in different orders, but I guess this is a minor point anyway. I guess my point was that the language of Genesis really can't be used by fundamentalists as absolute "proof" that evolution is unscriptural. But, I personally have no interest in trying to reconcile a piece of Hebrew literature with evolutionary science, since all of the archeological evidence shows that humans have been here for at least 2 million years, thus proving that the Garden of Eden account is nothing more than a mythological story.

  • dilaceratus
    dilaceratus

    Wow, how come all those evidence-based people who thought the earth was a spheroid and speculation-based people who thought the earth was a round disc couldn't come to such an easy "synthesis"? Obviously, the middle ground is the truth, and the earth is a cylinder.

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