Help!! China and the Flood - insanity is nascent!!!!

by hamsterbait 19 Replies latest jw experiences

  • james_woods

    More on La Peyrere - (not to say of course that he was at all right about anything...), and to explain why I thought it was out of the "flood" context...


    Cain’s wife’s origin: why it matters!

    In the 17 th century, some Bible expositors, it seems, could not answer the question of where Cain got his wife. 1 One such was Isaac La Peyrère, a Jewish convert to Catholicism from Bordeaux. 2 To solve what he considered to be a problem, he proposed that Cain’s wife and the inhabitants of Cain’s city all came not from Adam but from pre-Adamic stock—beings who had lived in ‘the indefinite amount of time before Adam’. 3

    He said that Adam was the first Jew and the father of the Jews, but not the father of mankind, so it is not surprising that La Peyrère rejected the doctrine of Original Sin, i.e. that innate depravity is transmitted to all mankind because of Adam’s sin. He said that in the world to come everyone would be saved (universalism). He also argued that Eve was not the first woman, but the first Jewish woman, wife and mother. To explain the presence of Gentiles post-Flood, and to avoid the conclusion that they were all descendants of Noah and his family, he said that the Flood was local, not global. The Gentiles were descended from various pre-Adamites, not from Adam. This polygenesis of the Gentiles was his method of explaining the existence of the Negroes, Chinese, Eskimos, American Indians, Malays and other people groups being discovered.

    He also denied that Moses wrote the Pentateuch (i.e. Genesis to Deuteronomy), and he questioned both the accuracy of Genesis and the authenticity of the Biblical text. Although he was soundly refuted by Jewish and Protestant theologians, and declared to be a heretic by the Catholic Church, his questioning of the authority and accuracy of the Bible was the beginning of modern biblioscepticism. From it came the so-called modern ‘higher criticism’ of the Bible.

    In the 20 th century, the claim that other-colored people originated from pre-Adamites has been a key pillar for theistically inclined ‘white’ racists. 4 These have included British Israelites, Christian Identity, and some factions of the Ku Klux Klan. 5 What an incredible legacy of hate derives from the failure of the leaders of these organizations to correctly answer the matter of who Cain’s wife was!


    A little off the subject, but out of "intellectual honesty" here it is...

  • Satanus

    James woods

    Excellent material on chinese culture vss christianity.


  • hamsterbait

    Thanks Funky and others.

    My heart has slowed, and I can breathe without the aid of a brown paper bag. (MY mother also claims that my memories of the 1975 nonsense is rubbish)

    I have long held that the length of Chinese records, and their superior completeness to those of the Middle east argues against a global flood.

    Even Jesus did not say: "The global flood came and swept them all away."

    The WT argues that the world wide drought mentioned in James, only affected the known world not all the globe. And where Paul says the Good News was preached in "all creation that is under the sun" he only meant the known world (So why did the Chines know nothing of Christianity until the Jesuits arrived in the 16 cent?)

    They won't admit that Noah only meant the known world of his culture because they have invested too much energy deceiving people with pseudo- science to go back on it all at once. Though I suspect they will start back pedaling as they did over the 7 000 year creative days, and their admission that bacteria existing early in earth's history does not contradict Genesis, as Genesis does not mention their existence!!!


  • Sadie Masokissdick
    Sadie Masokissdick

    The Chinese ideogram [character] for boat or ship features the symbol for "mouth" [in Chinese, "kou"] on the bottom of right-hand side. However, the character above it is NOT the character for "eight." Therefore, the "eight mouths" conjecture is nonsense.

    As for the character for greed [pronounced as lan in Chinese], it does indeed consist of combining two characters. The top half does mean "forest" [pronounced as lin in Chinese]. And below it is the character for "woman." However, the top part of the character functions only as a phonic element. That it to say that it gives an approximate indication in regard to how to pronounce the character. Many Chinese characters have two parts - one part gives an indication as to meaning, while the other provides a clue as to how to pronounce the character. Here, the phonic element [lin] provides a clue as to how to pronounce the Chinese character for "greed" [in Chinese, lan]. In other words, in the Chinese character for greed, the top half - which means "forest" - functions only as guide to pronunciation.

    I cannot believe that the Watchtower would publish such ludicrous and chimerical conjectures. You would think that they would consult reliable sources like Chinese-language lexicons and dictionaries. And I'm sure that they could have easily consulted a native speaker of Chinese - something which they obviously did not do.

  • Earnest
    The Chinese ideogram [character] for boat or ship features the symbol for "mouth" [in Chinese, "kou"] on the bottom of right-hand side. However, the character above it is NOT the character for "eight." Therefore, the "eight mouths" conjecture is nonsense.

    Apart from the fact that the meaning of these characters is confirmed in the publication I referred to above, the publication "Chinese-English Expressions for Travellers" (1984, China Travel and Tourism Press, Beijing) confirms that the character above the symbol for "mouth" could easily be derived from the symbol for "eight" [in Chinese, "ba"].

    And I'm sure that they could have easily consulted a native speaker of Chinese - something which they obviously did not do.

    As I have done, and who have confirmed the meaning of these characters.


  • hamsterbait


    Welcome!!!!! Welcome!!!!

    There are so few Chinese speakers on the board that it is great to have somebody to debunk the stuff the WTBTS is spouting about the Chinese speaking world.

    I reckon that most of the chinese speakers so enthusiastically studying with the dubs are just wanting to learn the language, and how to use it to manipulate western thought in the direction that suits increased profits to the still Beijing dominated government.

    There is now a whole cell claiming to be pro JW in Beijing.


  • Leolaia

    Apparently, the demons speak Chinese.

    *** w63 6/1 p. 344 Is Speaking in Tongues an Evidence of True Worship? ***

    Those who seek these miraculous gifts that God no longer bestows upon his people lend themselves to such deception by Satan, and often the effects are embarrassing. Aside from the convulsive seizures and emotional shouting, D. A. Hayes in his book The Gift of Tongues described an incident similar to those reported by others. "At Los Angeles not long ago," he wrote, "a woman had the gift of tongues, and a reputable Chinaman who heard her said that she was speaking his dialect of Chinese. When he was asked to interpret what she said, he refused to do it, saying that the language was the vilest of the vile."

    Such obscenity is characteristic of the work of the demons.

    BTW this anecdote dates back to 1910 or so...a fact omitted in the 1963 article.

  • Sadie Masokissdick
    Sadie Masokissdick

    Yes,I more or less figured that the article in question dated back to a much harsher, un-enlightened, and - hell, let's call a spade a spade and just say - "racist" era. How did I know? Well, the usage of the epithet "Chinaman" (as in "reputable Chinaman") is a dead give-away. By the way, I am happy that they were able to secure the assistance of a reputable Chinaman. Heaven forbid that they fall into the clutches of, and be mislead by, a disreputable Chinaman! You know the kind, the inscrutable Oriental against whom one must always be on guard.By the way, while I do believe that Earnest is being earnest (and I certainly believe in the importance of being earnest) I would not trust anything those nasty Chi-Coms (Chinese Communists) in Beijing publish. They're mean, ugly and nasty people who persecute religious minorities such as Falun Gong. And they are intent on destroying Tibetan culture.

  • Sadie Masokissdick
    Sadie Masokissdick

    By the way, did you see year of publication for the source that Earnest quotes? It was 1984. Hmmm, it has to make you wonder...1984. I wonder if that date has any symbolic/allegorical importance. Oh, Brooooown Boooy! Brown Boy, where are you? We need your insight and wisdom. Please make another miraculous appearance soon, and help us figure out this conundrum. Please! Please!

  • Earnest

    Hi Sadie,

    Your humour on this board is refreshing as, while it is important to be earnest, there does not seem much point in losing sleep over this particular thread. However, assuming that you do know Chinese perhaps you could clarify a point. My understanding is that in Chinese you have many words which have the same characters but when spoken the tone which is given to the word specifies its meaning. That is why someone from southern China who speaks Cantonese can read material written in Mandarin but cannot necessarily understand everything spoken by a Mandarin speaker.

    If my understanding is correct then the meaning of the character above the symbol for mouth can be either "eight" or "separation" (as shown by jwfacts above) and possibly other meanings as well. It all depends on the tone used. So, then, it is simply conjecture as to what the originators of the ideogram wanted to convey, but a boat with eight mouths is not far from the mark.

    Earnest PS My Chinese books are all in the early 80s as I was trying to learn Chinese at the time. I did eventually make it to Hong Kong but never really got to grips with the language.

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