Scriptures You Will Not Hear at the 23-07-06 Church Sermon

by scout575 20 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • XJW4EVR
    XJW4EVR

    Once again Scout shows his woeful ignorance or Biblical exegesis. He also shows the same ignorance of his own country's history in the anti-slavery movement. The anti-slavery movement had its roots in the Society for the Abolition of the Slave Trade which was formed by a an Evangelical British Christian by the name of William Wilberforce. In the U.S. a great many of the Abolitionists were Christians.

    Also the black Civil Rights movement began in the black Christian churches. Martin Luther King was a Christian minister.

    So though slavery is a blot on Christian history, there have been some that have seen its ill effects on society, and done something about it.

    The same cannot be said for Islam which still practices slavery. Especially teh selling of Christians into slavery.

  • Perry
    Perry

    Scout,

    A lot of those scriptures were written to new Christians who were going a little"nuts" over their new found freedom in Christ, the same Christ who freed them from the Law. They needed a reminder to not play God for a fool nor to make sin a result of the "End" of the law.

    Others of those scriptures I believe indicate concessions to the Jews because thousands of years of rule-keeping permeated their thinking. It was like, "Ok just so you don't explode, here's a few rules you can keep if you still need a few to hang on to."

    But, by far the over all thrust of the NT was a completely different message of a far superior nature. The message was that if you submit to Christ and die to yourself daily, (crucify yourself) something interesting will happen, you will no longer desire to do the things prohibited by law. That is how Christ is the end of the Law....he make it possible even easy to live up to it because Christ does it for you by making you a holy temple through you faith and then living inside of you. "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me". Galatians 2: 20

    You seem to make it sound as if Christ's teachings as found in the NT had no effect on slavery. Textbooks and essays typically focus on the ways in which "Christians" participated in the sin of slavery and portray it as largely a Western phenomonon practiced by white Europeans and Americans with a Christian background; even though it was indigenous to Africa and Arabian countries before making its way to Europe and beyond. Why? Sociologist Stark says writers do not wish to risk being accused of minimizing "white guilt" . He is not a Christian to my knowledge.


    Slavery, for the large part pretty much died out in Europe for several centuries and was really revived by the British in the 17th century and other European countries and their colonies followed suit. This was a different situation than the early Church ridding itself of African-Greco-Roman slavery and then at times reversing itself and imitating the pagan cultures it sprang from. This was pure evil from countries whose proponents commonly identified themselves as "Christians". Quite different and much more culpable in my opinion. Serious minded Christians did not see it as consistent with NT teachings though.

    As already noted by XJW4EVR, William Wilborforce was a powerful Christian orator against slavery in the British House of Commons. He once declared, "Help me O Jesus, and by thy Spirit cleanse me from my pollutions; give me a deeper abhorrence of sin". It was said that his speeches were more powerful when they "appealed to the Christian consciences of Englishmen". He presented a petetition in 1823 to the House to abolish slavery, a petition that his associate Thomas Fowell Buxton moved "as a resolution declaring slavery repugnant to Christianity and the Constitution". A few days before he died he received word that Parliment had passed the Abolition Act in 1833. This Act resulted in freeing 700,000 slaves in the West Indies Colonies.

    Even some early American Presidents owned slaves after echoing Pauls words about how everybody was equal before God; "all men are created equal". Things later got quite nasty in the USA among "Christians" The South was deeply entrenched in it. It was a part of the way of life and culture. Virtually every church denomination had advocates for slavery. They engaged in faulty exegesis by quoting OT passeges that cited its presence, man's sinfulness, blacks perceived inferiority, historical precedent, absolute economic necessity.... just about whatever appeal to authority they could find to justify their evil.

    Eventually Christians wouldn't stand for the inconsistency with NT principles. Two thirds of the Abolitionists in the 1830's were Christian clergymen. This was a powerful moral fighting unit. Elijah Lovejoy the "first Abolitionist Martyr" was a Presbyterian Clergyman. " I shall come out, open, fearlessly and as I hope in a manner as becomes a servant of Jesus Christ when defending his cause". He was killed by pro-slavery radicals in Illinois in 1837. Clergyman Charles T. Torrey helped 100,000 slaves escape northward to freedom. He died in prison serving time for aiding and abbetting slaves. Christiantity must be credited with moving other clergy to abolition causes like, Lovejoy, Finney, Weld, Edward Beecher, Henry Beecher. Lyman Beecher, father of Harriet Beecher Snow thought that abolitism grew out of the Great Revival that preceeded it in the eastern US.

    Lots of lay people exercised their own Christian consciences and practiced civil disobedience for matters of conscience. Many echoed the feeling of one outspoken lay person concerning the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850, - "We cannot be Christians and obey it"! Let's not forget Abraham Lincoln either, another outspoken Christian Lay person.

    The book, Uncle Tom's Cabins deserves mention here. As one profesor wrote:

    The book abounds with allusions to biblical references and throughout its emotionally moving pages the author reveals the deep spiritual tensions and conflicts, induced by Christian values, that existed among slave owners. In noting these tensions and conflicts, Stowe shows how slavery violated the teachings of Christ....A sea captain who met her said that he was glad to shake the hand of the one who wrote Uncle Tom's Cabin. She responded, God wrote it... I merely did his dictation.

    When Brazil outlawed slavery in 1888 all of the West was finally free. Christian abolitionists were active there too. Lecky (who is many times sharply critical of Christianity) says it was the influence of Christianity that ended slavery in the western world. Stark states in a recent book, "the abolition of the New World slavery was initiated and achieved by Christian activists".

    I have found abolition proclamations by Menonites and many others too nurmerous to mention that based their thoughts on scripture whether it was Paul's call to equality for slaves and freedmen, the do unto others rule, Christ dying for all men and many other scriptural references. The point is that slavery for the Christian is totally incompatible with the NT. This laid a foundation for the West to confront its evil. Scout, will you join me in praising all these Christian legislators, pastors, and lay people for echoing Christ's ministry and Pauls expansion on God's view of all people? Free people everywhere surely owe Christianity at least that.

    Dec 21, 2004
  • scout575
    scout575

    Perry: You say that new ,'nutty' Christians needed prohibitions until they matured as Christians. Maybe these same immature Christians could have benefited from a prohibition on enslaving, and yet they are merely advised against treating their slaves too harshly ( Ephesians 6:9 ).

    I find it ironic that the NT issues a prohibition on, 'Foolish talking' ( Ephesians 5: 3,4 ), and yet fails to do so with regard to buying, selling and owning slaves. Paul doesn't, 'sow a seed' for the abolition of, 'Foolish talking'; he rather says: "Let it NOT BE ONCE named among you." ( verse 4 ) Why when it comes to the much more morally obnoxious practice of slavery, does he not say to new, 'nutty' Christians, 'Let it NOT BE ONCE practiced among you'?

    I suspect that if the NT had have prohibited slavery, many Christians would now be pointing at that prohibition with great pride saying, 'Look how far ahead of its time the NT was, look how 'revolutionary' its teachings are!' Sadly, there is no such prohibition. Sadly, the NT prefers to prohibit, 'Foolish talking'.

  • Perry
    Perry

    Scout, Which is easier to do?

    1. Free your slave?

    2. Love your slave as your own dear brother?

    In the first instance one man becomes free. In the second, two men become Free.

  • scout575
    scout575

    Perry: I would prefer a third option: Free your slave and love him as your own dear brother. How refreshing it would be to have those words recorded in the NT. Instead, we read: "Ye masters, do the same things unto them ( their slaves ), forbearing threatening." ( Ephesians 6:9 )

    I suspect that Paul's words are quite generous when compared to the prevailing first century view of how slaves should be treated, but they fall woefully short of what I would expect to find in a book inspired of a god of perfect love and justice. In a book of many, many prohibitions, not once do we read: Thou shalt not enslave.

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    Who needs something so spelled out ? Love you neighbour as youself

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    I suppose I should add - nowhere does the NT spell out "thou shalt not stop your children from acquiring a well rounded education"

    People know things by nature - but somewhere along the line others are tempted into following rules so as to earn a prize, and they forget concepts of kindness to their neighbour - suppressing the natural and, with others, commit shameless acts that typically are not spelled out.

  • scout575
    scout575


    A Paduan: The trouble is that the NT does 'spell out' many, many prohibitions ( I list eleven of them above, and there are many others ). You're right, of course, in saying that if a person loves his neighbour he wouldn't bring harm to him; and yet this doesn't stop the NT from issuing this prohibition against stealing: "Let him that stole steal no more." ( Ephesians 5:28 ) How hard would it have been for this NT writer to have also said: "Let him that enslaved enslave no more"?

    As I have repeatedly pointed out in this thread, Paul doesn't tell Christian slave owners to free their slaves, he rather gives them advice about how to treat them ( Eph 6:9; Col 4:1 ). By writing what he did in these verses he clearly shows that he condones slavery in principle. He is saying to Christians that its ok to own slaves, but they must remember not to be too hard on them.

    A brief look at the book of Ephesians reveals the following ( 'spelled out' ) prohibitions:

    1 - Lying - 4:25

    2 - Stealing - 4:28

    3 - Corrupt communication - 4:29

    4 - Grieving the holy spirit - 4:30

    5 - Bitterness - 4:31

    6 - Wrath - 4:31

    7 - Anger - 4:31

    8 -Clamour - 4:31

    9 - Evil speaking - 4:31

    10 - Malice - 4:31

    11 - Fornication - 5:3

    12 - Uncleanness - 5:3

    13 - Covetousness - 5:3

    14 - Filthiness - 5:4

    15 - Foolish talking - 5:4

    16 - Jesting -5:4

    17 - Whoremongering - 5:5

    18 - Partakers with children of disobedience - 5:7

    19 - Fellowship with unfruitful works of darkness - 5:11

    20 - Drunkenness - 5:18

    21 - Provoking children - 6:4

    Lots of 'spelled out' prohibitions for Christians here, in just 2 chapters of the NT; and yet when, in chapter 6:9, Paul comes to the subject of slavery, does he continue in the same vein as above and issue another prohibition? Not at all. He merely says to Christian slave owners: "And ye Masters, do the same things unto them ( slaves ), forbearing threatening." Suddenly Paul loses his urge to issue prohibitions. What a shame.

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    >Although the NT condemns and prohibits many things, nowhere does it condemn or prohibit the buying, owning and selling of slaves. What a shame.

    The N.T. was never mean't cure civilization's social ills. The focus was and is on personal salvation. THAT is what cures the social ills!
    Rex

  • Apostate Kate
    Apostate Kate

    Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    I don't know how you can get any clearer. Christians who understood not only set their slaves free, but also loved them as a brother. Remember there were slaves who made it their life commitment to stay and serve out of love.

    Ephesians 4:1-32 I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beg you to walk worthily of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and humility, with patience, bearing with one another in love; being eager to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all. But to each one of us was the grace given according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Therefore he says, "When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men." Now this, "He ascended," what is it but that he also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things. He gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, shepherds and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, to the work of serving, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we may no longer be children, tossed back and forth and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error; but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, Christ; from whom all the body, being fitted and knit together through that which every joint supplies, according to the working in measure of each individual part, makes the body increase to the building up of itself in love. This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their hearts; who having become callous gave themselves up to lust, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But you did not learn Christ that way; if indeed you heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus: that you put away, as concerning your former way of life, the old man, that grows corrupt after the lusts of deceit; and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new man, who in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of truth. Therefore, putting away falsehood, speak truth each one with his neighbor. For we are members one of another. "Be angry, and don't sin." Don't let the sun go down on your wrath, neither give place to the devil. Let him who stole steal no more; but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing that is good, that he may have something to give to him who has need. Let no corrupt speech proceed out of your mouth, but such as is good for building up as the need may be, that it may give grace to those who hear. Don't grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, outcry, and slander, be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other, just as God also in Christ forgave you.

    Not a prohibition but a suggestion to have a closer walk with Jesus. Ephesians 5 goes on to spell out what things humans do that are not acceptable behavior. The sad thing is that Paul even had to EXPLAIN what evil was!

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