What Scripture is used to prove? Warning Long

by Broken Hearted 5 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Broken Hearted

  A little or intro:

  Let me start by saying I apologize if this has been coved on this sight. I have read many post on many subjects, there is 5 years of post on here and with no search engine to type in what I am looking for hard to find,

  Okay I have received a few of the WTS publications, a couple of the current watch towers (July 1, and July 15), the July Awake, The publications on the Trinity, Blood, and what does God Require of US, I also have the book What Does the Bible Really Teach? And now have my own NWT. So I have been doing a lot of reading, along with all this I also have my KJV Bible out, my NIV Bible, my NAS Bible, The Greek New Testament ( and I don't read Greek but good to compare the words) and my Strongs Concordance, oh of course the internet. Need I say I have a lot at my finger tips and so I have become obsessed (which I was taught growing up is a sin) with all this, reading, searching, etc. I start out in the morning thinking I will do something else in a few and before you know it, it is 4:30 in the morning and I remind my self I do need some sleep. I am teacher and except for a trip here and there, I have a lot of time until August 1 when I have to report back.

  Okay Question(s):

  1.) From reading post here and a couple other sites I am to assume that JWs think they are the only way to make it through Armageddon, so question What scripture do they have to back this up?

  2.) I read a lot on here about the Faithful and Discreet Slave, (before getting on here never even heard of this term) When I went to find scripture on this, I went to the strongs and found that the word discreet was only in the bible 3 times Ge 41:33, 39 and then again in Tit 2:5 So I go to look it up the index in the NWT and find they have it listed 9 times and only one of the listing I typed above are listed in their index. Question What is the faithful and discreet slave terminology about? Why is this so important?

  3) I was have been reading the official watch tower sight and their beliefs, but what strikes me odd is that The things they seem to preach they go against in many ways, They talk about real love and that they are not taught to think they are better than others so question: Isn't teaching that you should not have any socializing out side the WTS other than the unfortunate business dealings, or witnessing Not love and putting your self higher than others? Then there is the disfellowshipping ( A BIG stumbling block for me, I am trying to opened minded but this screams NOOOOOOOOOO) Okay then the question comes to mind about being a believer or a non believer, ( Christian or non Christian) Again I have to ask here what scripture supports that only JW are Christians, Meaning of Christian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian And isn't implying to a NON JW that they are not a Christian because they don't belong to the organization judging, and saying you are better?

  I have so many more questions, I am trying to be very opened minded with my research, the guy I am sort of dating online, thinks I am always looking for the negative of this religion, I have asked him some of these questions, he tries to answer but then my over analytical mind then comes up with another one and well he is getting frustrated, and tells me I need to call the local kingdom so then I ask if you can't answer how can they, and then he tells me they may be better prepared or better trained than he is, SO then I ask again and what would make them that way. He seems to think I am afraid of meeting which I am not, I just want to be very prepared when I do, because while I know some scriptures I could not off the top of my head just come up with ones. I realize that many of you keep telling me to run, but I am just a stubborn person that sees the challenge and takes it on.

  Last night I was feeling a little overwhelmed, I was reading the July 15 watchtower and the questions from readers, I know there have been many post on this and even I posted, however I read it again and in the first paragraph it say”Can a person be disfellowshipped from he Christian congregation for engaging in uncleanness as he can be for fornication or lose conduct?" My first thought here would be why would anyone ask this question, second thought was, If someone actually wrote this question to the society Why would be more concerned with disfellowshipping from the congregation than they would be for the sin that it is and the offense to GOD? okay I keep reading, then I see where they go over and address the question using, Galatians 5:19:21, Well that is all and good, However the Whole Context should have been starting with verse 16 and going to verse 26. These verses are talking about walking and being guided with the holy sprit, I understand they used 19-21 because of the nature of the question however I don't feel you should take it out of context; it needs to be there in its entirety. The question was about uncleanness however they felt they needed to go into the definition of Fornication. They quote say "Fornication (Greek, por.nei' a) applies to illicit sexual relations outside Scriptural marriage. It includes adulty, prostitution, and sex relations between unmarried individuals as well as oral and anal sex and sexual manipulation of the genitals of an individual to whom one is not married." So I go to my 4 different and read the verses in all 4. I then take and look up the word fornication in Strongs, comparing the Greek word in Strongs with the Greek word in the Greek New testament I have. This is what I came up with. Fornication is Por.nei'a which is Harlotry (including adultery and incest) Female prostitution and Male prostitution. Well prostitution is getting paid for a service just because you have sex and not married does not make you a prostitute. Here is definition of prostitute http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitute So Does Fornication really mean that two people who are not married can not have sex? The definition never mentioned marriage. And the part about oral and anal, I believe that was referring to the men and male prostitutes, I do no believe that was referring to a male and a female, plus no where did I see it mention in the definition of fornication anything at all about genital manipulation. Later on in the article they go on to say that Lose conduct is "behavior that violate all bonds of what is socially acceptable." Socially acceptable to who?

  Okay maybe I am over analyzing things, I guess I need help.

  Can anyone answer any of the questions listed? And your thoughts on this?
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  Leolaia

  1.) From reading post here and a couple other sites I am to assume that JWs think they are the only way to make it through Armageddon, so question What scripture do they have to back this up?

  None. This is based on Judge Rutherford's imagination. Neither does the "great crowd" in heaven "survive" the tribulation without dying. The idea in Revelation is that the faithful are all put to death by the Beast before Armageddon. If you're alive at the time of the end, it is because you've accepted the mark of the Beast. That is why the great crowd is pictured in heaven wearing white robes (symbolic of martyrdom and resurrection). More discussion on this: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/96705/1.ashx.

  2.) I read a lot on here about the Faithful and Discreet Slave, (before getting on here never even heard of this term) When I went to find scripture on this, I went to the strongs and found that the word discreet was only in the bible 3 times Ge 41:33, 39 and then again in Tit 2:5 So I go to look it up the index in the NWT and find they have it listed 9 times and only one of the listing I typed above are listed in their index. Question What is the faithful and discreet slave terminology about? Why is this so important?

  Congratulations! Your rather limited Bible study led you indirectly to a fact that years of Watchtower study would never lead you to: that the F&DS parable is based on the OT story of Joseph. Understanding this is key to understanding the parable:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/67457/1.ashx

  As for what porneia means in Greek, the term is underspecified....its meaning depends on context. What the Society is trying to do is fix precise meanings that do not exist....iow, the precision is artificial.
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  Broken Hearted

  LeoLaia

  Congratulations! Your rather limited Bible study led you indirectly to a fact that years of Watchtower study would never lead you to: that the F&DS parable is based on the OT story of Joseph. Understanding this is key to understanding the parable:

  Could this be becaue I was never told I could only read publications from wtbs and know that a true research is not put out by only one publication?

  Thank you,

  I went to both links you posted and all I have to say is WOW again, There was definitely a lot of information on both links my head is just spinning of course. I feel the same as other that have commented on your Post, you have a definite gift of analyzing scriptures and i do enjoy reading your post along with blondie's, lovelylil's and lady lee's

  I just keep thinking that someone in the GB and probably started from the beginning, read the prophsey and now is trying to manipulate things so that the society looks like they are the ones being prophsied about. I remember as a teenager ( think i was in 8th grade) we had a man that came to our congregation, that called me out of the audience and prophsied that I would be involved with the hispanic community. WEll at the time I did like a mexican boy in my grade, well they moved away the following year, I was sad, Then, about 4 years later we come back in contact and well we started dating a week before i graduated highschool, in the back of my mind I wondered if this was my prophsey, Well for 26 years on and off this relationship has lasted, but figured out a long time ago, while he is hispanic he is not what the propshey was about, Then when I was in my 20's we had a missionary that was from Guatamala, He was gorgeous, single spirit filled man, immediately my mind then when back to the propshey but did not pursue that, A year later, I met this guy who was puerto rican, we started dating, and well then I ended up pregnant, We did not marry because we both knew we would not be getting married for the right reason ( wish I had listened to that voice 2 years later oh well) But when my beautiful 1/2 puerto rican daughter was born I immediately thought wow this is my prophsey. Jump ahead several years, I become a teacher, the area that I teach in is becoming more and more hispanic and this year out of 16 children in my class 4 were white, 4 black and the other 8 were hispanic, I had not thought about the propshey in many years, because I thought It was fullfilled, however at some point at the beginning of the school year, I heard the Holy Spirit say you know that prophsey, you are in the midst of it. I shared all this to say, at many times in my life knowing that i was prophised over,I came to realize I was trying to fullfill it instead of letting God fullfill it. I think about this when I read or hear that the society is the organization that was prophsied about and when I cant find backing for this in the scriptures.
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  AuldSoul

  On the first question, you wanted to know what Scripiture(s) they use, is that correct? If so, I would disagree with Leolaia (which is rare). They almost always have verses to make their points, and this is no exception. They use:

  Revelation 14:6, 7
  Psalm 37:34
  Joel 2:32
  Ezekiel 9 (the whole chapter)
  John 17:16, 17 *** Survival Into a New Earth chap. 12 pp. 96-97 pars. 15-16 Identified for Destruction or Survival? ***15 All who want to be marked as having God’s approval must accept the instruction that Jehovah is providing through that “slave” class and become true worshipers of Jehovah. They must not be persons who honor Jehovah with their mouths but who really love the world’s ways. (Isaiah 29:13, 14; 1 John 2:15) They must love Jehovah and his standards and feel grieved at heart, “sighing and groaning,” over teachings and practices that dishonor him. No one will put a literal ink mark on their forehead. But when they have the symbolic mark it will be obvious to all that, as dedicated, baptized Christians, they have put on the “new personality” described at Ephesians 4:24. They have a living faith. Publicly and privately they endeavor to do what will honor Jehovah. Not only persons who have come out of Christendom but all, regardless of background, who hope to survive into the “new earth” as associates of the anointed class must have this mark.
  16 Particularly significant is the fact that Jehovah’s executioners were told that age, sex, singleness or marriage relationship was no reason to spare an offender against Jehovah. A married person must individually have his or her mark in order to be spared. If parents resist having their children marked or if they fail to bring them up as servants of Jehovah, they must bear the responsibility for what happens to those children. Although obedient children of godly parents are viewed as “holy” by Jehovah, rebellious ones are not. (1 Corinthians 7:14; Psalm 102:28; Proverbs 20:11; 30:17) If children are old enough to become baptized Christians but do not want to live up to the requirements, whether they are baptized or not, their age will not result in their being spared. How vital, then, for each individual of responsible age to be clearly marked as a person dedicated to God and doing his will!

  They also use the concept of entering through the narrow door/gate, and not becoming unevenly yoked to unbelievers.

  However, they contextually distort the intent of the verses they use, both in the context of the Scripture among surrounding verses and in the temporal context in which the words were penned. I hope this helps.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
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  Broken Hearted

  AuldSol

  Thanks for the added post.

  I am feeling very stupid with all this right now. I am so trying to have the open mind, I just don't see the foundation for the orgaziation to claim they are the only chosen religion. Then, when I try to tell JW friend this he just keeps telling me that I am not going to understand, because I don't have the whole picture and that I need to sit down with someone. He knows I am on this board and I have told him many times about the very intelligent people I have run across here , and that some of those here are still active and hold positions and that the site is not just those that have left, or were disfellowshipped. I brought up the 607 date, the other day to him for two reasons, One because that is what has got many of you analyzing and thinking outside the WT, and two because there was mention of it in the July 15, watchtower under the title God's Kingdom Superior in Every Way pages 4 -7. When I starting bringing up some key points, I then again got told it is because I don't have all the pieces to the puzzle. When I asked what all the pieces were he could not tell me and told me again that I needed to contact my local KH. I think what I am finding hard here, is that some of the things that I read here as important key points for you seeing the so called "light" was not even discussed in the sermons I attended growing up. Thanks for those of you that are putting up with me on this trying to understand things better. I will say that I have read the Bible (all versions) more in the last 3 months than I have in the last 11 years. With the postings here the scriptures I use to try and read (skim because seemed too deep for the average joe) have now made more sense from the wisdom of many bright people.
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  Hellrider

  okay I keep reading, then I see where they go over and address the question using, Galatians 5:19:21, Well that is all and good, However the Whole Context should have been starting with verse 16 and going to verse 26. These verses are talking about walking and being guided with the holy sprit, I understand they used 19-21 because of the nature of the question however I don't feel you should take it out of context; it needs to be there in its entirety.

  The WTS doesn`t care about context. They use the "cut and paste"-method in their "approach". They just pick a verse here and a verse there to support whatever crazy doctrine they want to establish. It also helps that very few JWs will bother actually looking up the verse quoted (except when at meetings, then the verse will be looked up, but of course, never read in its entire context, just the verse, ha ha). The reason why they weren`t able to trick you, is because you weren`t that lazy: You actually opened your Bible, and read not only the verse quoted, but the chapter in its entirety. Congratulations!