Mary the mother of Jesus a perpetual virgin? (page 2)

gumby

I say let the Catholics believe what they want to believe.

Robdar, you cannibisgodess. Your prolly right about this.....but how the heck are professional apostates like all us here s'posed to not shoot off our mouths and tell folks to beware they don't fall into a trap of believin stuff that ain't true? Whether to speak or whether to keep quite....what should we do? The difference is, one group can destroy lives, the other one...in many cases but not always, can be a good thing for some.

Gumby...who's gonna let em believe what they want, but share what I know without badgering them.

bebu

The Catholics also believe that Mary's mother never had intercourse with Mary's father and that she was born without sin. It is called the Immaculate Conception.

As I recollect, that isn't quite right. They believe that Mary was conceived immaculately--that is, that somehow she was normally conceived, but given grace so that her genetic contribution to Jesus was free from the taint of sin. That's my understanding of the idea...

Which is another point of contention between Catholics and Protestants. For that to be true, Mary would have to have been sinless all her life as well. And if such could happen for Mary, why not for Jesus as well? (Not arguing here, just stating the situation.)

(BTW, I don't have a problem with the virgin birth. Considering it takes ONE microscopic sperm cell to fertilize an egg, I think God could handle creating ONE sperm cell right where He wanted if it's true that He managed to speak and bring an entire universe into being!)

bebu

Kenneson

Lovelylil,

I have often wondered why Jesus would entrust the care of his mother to John rather than to his own "brothers"? John 19:26-27 They're not dead. We find them all together in Acts 1:13-14.

lovelylil

Kenneson,

That is a really good question. I don't really have a definate answer but can only assume that it is because Jesus' brothers did not believe that he was the Messiah. Remember when they thought he was crazy for saying he was God's son? They tried to sieze him and stop him from what he was doing thinking he was speaking like a madman.

Up until the time that Jesus was put to death on the cross - none of his brothers became his followers - they are absent at his crucifiction which verifies this. So this could be why Jesus left his mother in the care of Saint John - so she would be spiritually upbuilt as well as having her physical needs taken care of.

Now, sometime after that, at least one of Jesus' brothers did become a Christian (Bible scholars believe it was James and he is the one who wrote the book of James) but we don't know how long afterward he converted.

However, Jesus had to make a fast decision as to what to do with his mother he was leaving behind. John was the Apostle he loved the most and was in the faith, thus he would have been a good choice.

Kenneson

Thanks for your reply. Some people, however, assert that Mary also did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah until after the Resurrection. They say she was with the "brothers." See Mark 3:21, 31-35. They also say that her presence at the Cross was maternal and not spiritual.

lovelylil

Kennesen,

The verse in Mark 3:21 says when his family heard this, they went to take charge of him, for they said; He is out of his mind" -

This verse says family which could mean mother also but is does not say Jesus mother, it only says family. I believe this is references his brothers and sisters only and I will tell you why in a sec...

The next verse in Mark 3:33,34 where Jesus is asking "who are my mother and my brothers?" and says "whoever does God's will is my brother, sister and mother" But this does not in itself implicate Mary his mother as one who did not believe he was the Messiah. Here, he is merely showing that membership into God's spiritual family, is more important than our human families.

This thought is brought out by Mark 10:29-30 it says "I tell you the truth", Jesus replied. "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me or the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields - and with them persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life.

The reason I say Mary believed Jesus was the Messiah is that she knew she had concieved thru God's Holy Spirit and the angel told her she would have God's son. And that she should call him Jesus and that he would rule over the earth, his kindgom being forever. See Luke 1:29-33.

And Elizabeth, John the Baptist mother also told her she was blessed by the LORD - Luke 1:39-44, and Mary because of this knowledge song a psalm or song to God known as Mary's song, here it is and it also proves she knew the significance of her Son Jesus.

46 And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
50 His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51 He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
52 He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
53 He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
54 He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful

How could Mary forget all this and think Jesus was not the son of God?

Kenneson

I agree with you that Mary was a believer before the Resurrection. I just wanted to see if you had some ideas I hadn't considered. These were some objections some Protestants raised to me. Here's why I feel she was a believer in addition to what you already said. When she was told by the angel (Luke 1)that she would conceive Jesus (God's son) , she said: "Be it done unto me according to your word." Her yes to the angel and God was a yes to Jesus as well. I feel this makes her technically the first Christian or believer (although the name does not appear until Acts). She treasured in her heart the sayings of the shepherds concerning Jesus. (Luke 2:19) At Cana, she certainly believed Jesus could do something about the wine situation. And her statement to those serving: "Do whatever he tells you," certainly is not indicative of unbelief in Jesus' capabilites. (John 2) Even the passage about who is my mother and my brothers? and whomever does the will of my Father, that is my mother and brothers is not meant to demean Mary. After all, she did do the will of the Father.

lovelylil

kennesen,

Good points you brought out too. I almost included the one about Mary treasuring up the things about Jesus but did not. Glad you did as this will add more help for others. I did not think about the event in Cana, thanks for reminding me of that.

The information we both brought out just shows that when you use the entire bible, you can get a very different view on things. Anyway, have a good evening, I am ready for bed. Lilly

jschwehm

Here is an interesting link on the subject:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Bad_Aramaic_Made_Easy.asp

Jeff S.

free2beme

It is said in other gospels, not accepted by the Christian Canon, that the brothers of Jesus were step brothers from the widower Joseph and remind us that the gospels never mention anything about Josephs past. He was a caretaker. Now with that said, remember this, a virgin birth is something from Pagan teachings of the day to prove Divine marks on society.

Mary the mother of Jesus a perpetual virgin?

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