John 8:3-11

by Zico 49 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Pete,

    Thanks for you kind words. I am sorry too. I think sometimes my hands type faster than my mind can find the right words and what comes out is much different than what I wanted to say. Anyway in the interest of not being misunderstood any more - I will only say this one thing; I agree you cannot shield anyone from information that is all around them but if they are in a fragile state and not well emotionally, that is an exception. I still stand by my statement that someone new to Christianity can get stumbled by some minor issues. Because they do not yet have the knowlege to understand that some issues have no basis on our salvation at all or our walk with Christ. I personally will not anc cannot be stumbled by any of these things because I have looked into all these things and for me they have no bearing on my faith at all. I simply find them to be good intellectual excercises.

    Anyway, thanks again and have a good day!

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Are you sure your not confusing someone with a fragile emotional state with a potential convert you want to convince. If my mother is dying of cancer I may choose not to tell her that her precious belief in reincarnation is wrong. If however I wish to simply shut out dissenting views when arguing for an opinion, I am guilty of using unethical technique called information control.

  • Apostate Kate
    Apostate Kate
    The whole stink with the DaVinci Code tells me that the situation is fairly the same in other denominations as well.

    The da Vinci code is seen by mainstream Christianity for what it is, a great novel, fairly good movie, but not based on reliable evidence. It has sparked renewed interest in the Catholic church in a positive way.

    Wkipedia;The Prieuré de Sion, usually rendered in English translation as Priory of Sion or Priory of Zion, is an alleged cabal featured in many conspiracy theories and works of pseudohistory. Since its actual foundation in 1956, it has been characterized as anything from the most influential secret society in Western history to a modern Rosicrucian-esque ludibrium, but, ultimately, has been shown to be a hoax created by Pierre Plantard. Most of the evidence presented in support of claims pertaining to its historical existence, let alone significance, has not been considered authentic or persuasive by established historians, academics, and universities.

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    peacefulpete,

    don't confuse me with the Jehovah's Witnesses and groups like them. I do not go looking for converts to Christianity.I am not seeking out people to tell them that the Jehovah's Witnesses are not a true religion. And I am not personally responsible for their emotional state. When these people come to me, they already have realized that the WT is not the truth and it is the WT and other groups like that which are responsbile for the pain caused to these people..

    These people contact me when their religion (mostly the WT, some are others) beats them up so badly that they are suicidal. I then give them first emotional support and sometimes physical support as many loose everything (home, family, jobs) because of the abuse they have suffered at the hands of so-called Christians. Then, if they are still interested in God and Jesus, and ask me where they should go now, I help them seek out Christ himself so that he can heal them and teach them. I personally, althought I attend a Church sporadically, do not believe in organized religion of any kind. I believe the whole institution of organized religions is for the main purpose of man dominating other man. Although they do some good - in my opinion they do a lot more harm to people.

    Many who contact me still want to be Christians and as a Christian myself, I can relate to them. I am in no way taking advantage of their emotional state to convert them. They already are christians!

    In no way am I controlling their information and I am not going to repeat myself in saying this. You are totally missing my point with that and I am tired of thinking I have to defend myself.

    Unfortunately many of these ones want to remain Christians but because of their emotional state are easily swayed by some who try to say Christianity is a total sham. If you believe it is, then that is your right. I disagree with that and it is my right if I feel to support Christian views and education. When someone is on their two feet again and are healed from the abuse - it is their right to view any material they want to.

    If they want to look into other views, the early church fathers, lost books of the bible, ancient legends then they can do so. As a matter of fact, they can come to my home and look at my extensive library of these books and hundreds of biblical books, bibles, biblical history books, archaeology and the bible books, commentaries, etc. that I have built up in 20 years.

    But you may have to face the fact that some of us, although we have all that information, and have read it, still decide to remain a Christian. So please stop insinuating that any of us hide the true facts or if not we would leave our faith. Like Kate said earlier it is not true. For many of these "intellectual facts" have nothing to do with faith at all.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Your concern for others is to be applauded.

  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch

    AK

    I agree with you that there are alot of christians that view the material in Brown's book as bogus and ridden with factual errors. The book is laughable as any real threat to mainstream christianity. My point with that example is that I heard quite a few of these same christians, discounting Brown's fiction, then go on to say that the NT gospels narratives are the historical reality. They apparently are not aware of the "fictional" elements of the gospels themselves.

  • Terry
    Terry
    in your response you state that the incident of the women who committed adultery was inserted into John like a great deal of other material, what is the great deal of other material, and would you mind giving me examples of this?



    Any book on text criticism will give you a boatload of examples.

    http://www.harpercollins.com/global_scripts/product_catalog/book_xml.asp?isbn=0060738170

    From the Publisher:When world-class biblical scholar Bart Ehrman first began to study the texts of the Bible in their original languages he was startled to discover the multitude of mistakes and intentional alterations that had been made by earlier translators. In Misquoting Jesus, Ehrman tells the story behind the mistakes and changes that ancient scribes made to the New Testament and shows the great impact they had upon the Bible we use today. He frames his account with personal reflections on how his study of the Greek manuscripts made him abandon his once ultraconservative views of the Bible.

    Since the advent of the printing press and the accurate reproduction of texts, most people have assumed that when they read the New Testament they are reading an exact copy of Jesus's words or Saint Paul's writings. And yet, for almost fifteen hundred years these manuscripts were hand copied by scribes who were deeply influenced by the cultural, theological, and political disputes of their day. Both mistakes and intentional changes abound in the surviving manuscripts, making the original words difficult to reconstruct. For the first time, Ehrman reveals where and why these changes were made and how scholars go about reconstructing the original words of the New Testament as closely as possible.

    Ehrman makes the provocative case that many of our cherished biblical stories and widely held beliefs concerning the divinity of Jesus, the Trinity, and the divine origins of the Bible itself stem from both intentional and accidental alterations by scribes -- alterations that dramatically affected all subsequent versions of the Bible.

    About the Author:

    Bart D. Ehrman chairs the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He is an authority on the history of the New Testament, the early church, and the life of Jesus. He has taped several highly popular lecture series for the Teaching Company and is the author of Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew and Lost Scriptures: Books that Did Not Make It into the New Testament. He lives in Durham, North Carolina.


    Annotation:

    In MISQUOTING JESUS, religion professor Bart Ehrman presents, for the general reader, an account of what "the Bible" is and how it came to be. He sheds fascinating light on the process whereby "the book," both before and after Gutenberg, was assembled from many disparate sources, oral and written, and how it went through many imperfect renderings--with mistakes, changes, and omissions that are significant both in themselves and as they have influenced theology. He attributes these disparities to the contentious times of the Bible's origin as well as to the theological politics of the centuries that followed. ||Ehrman recovers the language of the Bible's source letters and gospels and places them in the context of their day, providing a fascinating history of the early church and its subsequent development. In this one highly accessible volume, Ehrman shows what scores of theologians do with their time--arguing over and parsing texts--but he in no way diminishes the Bible. Indeed, his revelations do credit to its many-sourced inspirations and traditions.

  • Terry
    Terry
    Chapter One
    The Beginnings of Christian Scripture

    To discuss the copies of the New Testament that we have, we need to start at the very beginning with one of the unusual features of Christianity in the Greco-Roman world: its bookish character. In fact, to make sense of this feature of Christianity, we need to start before the beginnings of Christianity with the religion from which Christianity sprang, Judaism. For the bookishness of Christianity was in some sense anticipated and foreshadowed by Judaism, which was the first "religion of the book" in Western civilization.

    Judaism as a Religion of the Book

    The Judaism from which Christianity sprang was an unusual religion in the Roman world, although by no means unique. Like adherents of any of the other (hundreds of ) religions in the Mediterranean area, Jews acknowledged the existence of a divine realm populated by superhuman beings (angels, archangels, principalities, powers); they subscribed to the worship of a deity through sacrifices of animals and other food products; they maintained that there was a special holy place where this divine being dwelt here on earth (the Temple in Jerusalem), and it was there that these sacrifices were to be made. They prayed to this God for communal and personal needs. They told stories about how this God had interacted with human beings in the past, and they anticipated his help for human beings in the present. In all these ways, Judaism was "familiar" to the worshipers of other gods in the empire.

    In some ways, though, Judaism was distinctive. All other religions in the empire were polytheistic -- acknowledging and worshiping many gods of all sorts and functions: great gods of the state, lesser gods of various locales, gods who oversaw different aspects of human birth, life, and death. Judaism, on the other hand, was monotheistic; Jews insisted on worshiping only the one God of their ancestors, the God who, they maintained, had created this world, controlled this world, and alone provided what was needed for his people. According to Jewish tradition, this one all-powerful God had called Israel to be his special people and had promised to protect and defend them in exchange for their absolute devotion to him and him alone. The Jewish people, it was believed, had a "covenant" with this God, an agreement that they would be uniquely his as he was uniquely theirs. Only this one God was to be worshiped and obeyed; so, too, there was only one Temple, unlike in the polytheistic religions of the day in which, for example, there could be any number of temples to a god like Zeus. To be sure, Jews could worship God anywhere they lived, but they could perform their religious obligations of sacrifice to God only at the Temple in Jerusalem. In other places, though, they could gather together in "synagogues" for prayer and to discuss the ancestral traditions at the heart of their religion.

    These traditions involved both stories about God's interaction with the ancestors of the people of Israel -- the patriarchs and matriarchs of the faith, as it were: Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rachel, Jacob, Rebecca, Joseph, Moses, David, and so on -- and detailed instructions concerning how this people was to worship and live. One of the things that made Judaism unique among the religions of the Roman Empire was that these instructions, along with the other ancestral traditions, were written down in sacred books.

    For modern people intimately familiar with any of the major contemporary Western religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam), it may be hard to imagine, but books played virtually no role in the polytheistic religions of the ancient Western world. These religions were almost exclusively concerned with honoring the gods through ritual acts of sacrifice. There were no doctrines to be learned, as explained in books, and almost no ethical principles to be followed, as laid out in books. This is not to say that adherents of the various polytheistic religions had no beliefs about their gods or that they had no ethics, but beliefs and ethics -- strange as this sounds to modern ears -- played almost no role in religion per se. These were instead matters of personal philosophy, and philosophies, of course, could be bookish. Since ancient religions themselves did not require any particular sets of "right doctrines" or, for the most part, "ethical codes," books played almost no role in them.

    Judaism was unique in that it stressed its ancestral traditions, customs, and laws, and maintained that these had been recorded in sacred books, which had the status, therefore, of "scripture" for the Jewish people. During the period of our concern -- the first century of the common era, 1 when the books of the New Testament were being written -- Jews scattered throughout the Roman Empire understood in particular that God had given direction to his people in the writings of Moses, referred to collectively as the Torah, which literally means something like "law" or "guidance." The Torah consists of five books, sometimes called the Pentateuch (the "five scrolls"), the beginning of the Jewish Bible (the Christian Old Testament): Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. Here one finds accounts of the creation of the world, the calling of Israel to be God's people, the stories of Israel's patriarchs and matriarchs and God's involvement with them, and most important (and most extensive), the laws that God gave Moses indicating how his people were to worship him and behave toward one another in community together. These were sacred laws, to be learned, discussed, and followed -- and they were written in a set of books.

    Jews had other books that were important for their religious lives together as well, for example, books of prophets (such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Amos), and poems (Psalms), and history (such as Joshua and Samuel). Eventually, some time after Christianity began, a group of these Hebrew books -- twenty-two of them altogether -- came to be regarded as a sacred canon of scripture, the Jewish Bible of today, accepted by Christians as the first part of the Christian canon, the "Old Testament." 2
    The foregoing is excerpted from Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrman. All rights reserved. No part of this book may be used or reproduced without written permission from HarperCollins Publishers, 10 East 53rd Street, New York, NY 10022

  • Terry
    Terry


    This scripture is discussed by the author on NPR interview:

    Listen to this story... by Terry Gross

    A 12th Century copyist included this story in the margin of his copy and it was transmitted and retained. 12 hundred years after Jesus!

  • Terry
    Terry

    btt

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