Did John the Bap. have Elijah's spirit...? He's called Elijah the prophet

by Star Moore 21 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I cringe a little at the term "reincarnation" in the case of JtB because usually in common parlance reincarnation implies that the reincarnated person has already died, whereas in the case of Elijah he was assumed to heaven without dying (like Enoch), and it also implies being born anew in the womb. In some of the Enochic pseudepigrapha, we read that Enoch was raised up to heaven in the flesh but in entering the highest heaven his earthly garments were removed and he donned angelic heavenly robes (= he took angelic form, cf. the "spiritual body" mentioned in 1 Corinthians and the "white robes" given to the "great crowd" in heaven in Revelation 7). Although there is no surviving tradition about Elijah's life in heaven, the Enochic parallel suggests that a similar thing may have been thought to have occurred to Elijah. There is also a key apocalyptic scenario in the Book of Parables of 1 Enoch in which the heavenly Enoch will return as the anointed Son of Man, as the eschatological judge of the world....a text that likely lies behind NT apocalyptic references to the Son of Man. Similarly, there are texts at Qumran (particularly 11QMelch) that construes the priestly Messiah as Melchizedek revivivus (obviously related to the christological Melchizedek references in Hebrews). Since there was a similar messianic scenario about Elijah (as Malachi attests), it would not be unusual that he too would resume his function as prophet at the eschaton...and a clear residue of this idea appears in the the "two witnesses" vision of Revelation, the Apocalypse of Elijah, and other later texts.

    So it is unclear whether Elijah would return in the same flesh he ascended to heaven in, or would be re-incarnated in a literal sense (i.e. reclothed in human "garments" as he descends from heaven), or whether he returns in a "spiritual body" to use Paul's term. But the Eastern concept of reincarnation, I think, is foreign to Jewish apocalyptic thinking.

    Some scholars lean toward the idea that Enoch and Elijah are the 2 witnesses referred to in Revelation chapter 11.

    Actually it is clear from the literary allusions in Revelation 11:6 that the witnesses are Elijah and Moses. Compare the story of the transfiguration in the synoptics (cf. Matthew 17:3-4 parr.), in which they appear together, and the eschatological expectation in Deuteronomy Rabbah 3.17 = Midrash Rabbah 6:88. Although Moses died, there are much evidence of a tradition that he ascended in the spirit to heaven as he died (cf. the Assumption of Moses, its allusions in Jude and the apologists, Josephus, Antiquities 4.326, Acts of Pilate 16:7, and of course the transfiguration stories), just as there were similar traditions about Abraham (cf. the Testament of Abraham, the "Rich Man and Lazarus" story in Luke 16, etc.) and other patriarchs. One function of the transfiguration story also is to establish that Jesus was not Moses redivivus or Elijah redivivus. But you are right in that there were also traditions (outside of Revelation) that the "two witnesses" were Enoch and Elijah, the two prophets who never died (cf. Apocalypse of Elijah 4:7, Tertullian, De Anima 50; Hippolytus, De Antichristus 46.3-4, Comm. in Daniel 4.35.3, Apocalypse of Paul 20, Apocalypse of Peter Eth. 2). The big question is whether the Moses + Elijah pairing is older than the Enoch + Elijah pairing or what relationship the two traditions have.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    PP....Well, separationism is another interesting angle. What are the Jewish roots of Christian separationist christology? My mind turns to Hellenistic transmigration theories, such as the tradition about the Samaritan mystic Simon Magus and his prostitute wife Helena (= Ennoia, who has passed from one body to another since hoary antiquity) in Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses 1.23.1-4, but I know of no impact of such views on Jewish apocalyptic thought.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Honesty I was actually replying in jest to StarMoore.

    Leolaia, then perhaps the additional dialogue in the Lukan transfiguration story was perhaps, as I suspected, added to counter Matt's calling it a vision.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Leolaia, not that I'm certain we need to be looking for a Jewish source for the Cerinthian Christology I could find parallels in the whole demon posession idea.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I'm not sure what you mean. The extra dialogue is in Matthew rather than Luke, and I'm not seeing where Matthew calls it a "vision".

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Matthew 17:9, to horama, instead of ha eƮdon, "what they had seen," Mark 9:9.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Yes Luke prefers Mark here over Matthew for some reason needing explanation. And what I meant by extra dialogue was the detail that Elijah and Moses discussed with Jesus specific details about his departure in Jerusalem. The others felt content to have nonspecific "talking" which in my mind's eye has a more ethereal quality to it. 30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah,

    31 who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His (AH) departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Ah, there it is.

    BTW, it looks like the earliest reference to Enoch and Elijah appearing together at the final judgment is actually in the Animal Apocalypse of 1 Enoch (written in the 160s BC):

    "And thereafter those three who were clothed in white and had seized me by the hand, who had taken me up [to heaven] before, and the hand of the ram [cf. 89:52] also seizing hold of me, led me in and set me down in the midst of those sheep who were without condemnation. And those sheep were all white and their wool was abundant and clean. And all that had been destroyed and dispersed, and all the beasts of the field, and all the birds of heaven, assembled in that house, and the Lord of the sheep rejoiced with great joy because they were all good and had returned to his house" (1 Enoch 90:31-33).

    So the pairing of Enoch + Elijah is clearly quite early in the apocalyptic tradition.

  • Star Moore
    Star Moore

    Hello friends....interesting comments.

    Nark: Very complex indeed!

    Honesty: I didn't know about the theory about the 2 witnesses being Enoch and Elijah...just the witness belief..of Elijah and Moses...Although, it has to someone alive now....who could it be????

    Leolaia: You are really read up on the lost books...maybe they have some truth to them... I know Jesus kissed Mary Mag..on the lips in one of the Enoch books.. Hey, I think they were probably married.

    Peaceful Pete: Is separationism the idea that the soul/spirit has our personality and memories?

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Separationism is kind of a blanket term for Christians, from primarily the 1rst to 4th century, who found reason to believe Jesus was born in the usual way but then was inhabited by a heavenly presence (aka Christ). The Christ left the man's body just before his death which explains his outburtst in Matthew of "Eli Eli lema sabachtani" (My God, My God why have you left me?) which a mix of Hebrew and Aramaic. Interstingly Matthew may have changed Marks' Eloi to Eli so as to facilitate the crowd's interpreting the words as a call to Elijah. Was Matty or an editor going to lengths here to disprove the Jesus=Elijah position? Luke skips the whole thing and gives Jesus different last words. Maybe because he or and editor saw the words as fuel for Separationism.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit