One Watchtower/Catholic comparison...

by Confession 38 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  jschwehm

  But I draw the line when they try to tell me that I am not accepted into Christ's body unless I am in touch with the Catholic Church. As a Catholic I am sure you can verify that this is the belief, although some of my Catholic nieghbors are a little more balanced in this view.

  Hi:

  The Catholic Church views all baptized Christians as part of the Catholic Church. Those Christians not in communion with the Catholic Church are called our "separated brethren". So, actually, you are considered to be in communion with the Catholic Church albeit an imperfect communion.

  The churches as an organizational structure were not started until many years after the death of all the Apostles. There was absolutely no organization back then that resembled the JW org. or the Catholic Org. we have today, nor any other religous structure.

  Actually, you can see the existence of bishops and presbyters (priests) very early on in the Church. The writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch who was the bishop of Antioch were written some say as early as 90 A.D. and as late as 110 A.D. St. John is said to have written the book of Revelation around 96 A.D. In addition we have the writings of St. Clement of Rome who wrote around 96 A.D. it is believed. So, the hierachical structure of the churches seems to have been in existence during the time of the apostles and you certainly get this view if you read Eusebius' History of the Catholic Church which was written in the third century A.D. and is the first and most complete history written of the Church up to that time. In any case, here are some quotes from Ignatius of Antioch and St. Clement of Rome and these letters are considered authentic by Church historians both Protestant and Catholic:

  Our Apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be contention over the bishop's office. So, for this cause, having received complete foreknowledge, they appointed the above mentioned men, and afterwards gave them a permanent character, so that as they died, other approved men should succed to their ministry. Those, therefore, who were appointed, by the Apostles or afterwards by other eminent men, with the constent of the whole Church, and who ministered blamelessly to the flock of Christ in humility, peaceably and nobly, being commended for many years by all-these men we considere are not justly deposed from their ministry.- St. Clement of Rome Letter to the Corinthians, Chapter 44

  I exhort you to be careful to do all things in the harmony of God, the bishop having the primacy after the model of God and the priests after the model of the council of the Apostles, and the deacons (who are so dear to me) having entrusted to them the ministry of Jesus Christ-who from eternity was with the Father and at last appeared to us.-St. Ignatius Letter to the Magnesians, Chapter 6

  In the same way all should respect the deacons as they would Jesus Christ, just as they respect the bishop as representing the Father and the priests as the council of God and the college of the Apostles. Apart from these there is nothing that can be called a Church.-St. Ignatius of Antioch Letter to the Trallians Chapter 2

  Anyone who is within the sanctuary is pure and anyone who is outside is impure, that is to say, no one who acts apart from the bishop and the priests and the deacons has a clear conscience.-St. Ignatius of Antioch Letter to the Trallians Chapter 7

  For, all who belong to God and Jesus Christ are with the bishop. And those, to, will belong to God who have returned, repentant, to the unity of the Church so as to live in accordance with Jesus Christ. Make no mistake, brethren. No one who follows another into schism inherits the kingdom of God. No one who follows heretical doctrine is on the side of the passion. -St. Ignatius of Antioch Letter to the Philadelphians Chapter 3

  Let all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ did the father, and the priests, as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Apart from the bishop, let no one perform any functions that pertain to the Church. Let that Eucharist be held valid which is offered by the bishop or by one to whom the bishop has committed this charge. Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid.-St. Ignatius of Antioch Letter to the Smyrnaneans Chapter 8

  Jeff S.

  www.catholicxjw.com
• 

  jschwehm

  Centralized World-wide church government from which all official doctrine comes. The Pope and the Governing body.

  Actually the above is a misunderstanding of how the Catholic Church is governed. The Catholic Church is actually a collection of churches called dioceses and archdioceses which are governed by either a bishop or an archbishop. The bishops and archbishops in the Catholic Church are in union with their brother bishop the bishop of Rome also known as the Pope. The Pope and all of the bishops together govern the Catholic Church at large in a collegial manner and are often referred to as the college of Bishops. When disputes arise between the Churches, the bishop of Rome who is considered the Universal Pastor of the Church is the one who moderates these disputes and when necessary can impose a solution. However, the latter is done after much the Pope does much consulation with his brother bishops. Also, when very serious problems arise in the Church, the Pope will convene a council of all the bishops in the world to address the problem. The comment above is a caricature of what actually happens in the Catholic Church.

  Authority of this "world organization" is not to be questioned.

  It depends on what you mean by questioned. There are many Catholics who question the teachings of the Church. In this day and age, very few individuals are disciplined for it. I believe someone went back to see how many theologians were disciplined for teaching things that conflicted with the teachings of the Church by JPII who many considered to be a very authoritarian pope. Out of the many hundreds of thousands of theologians and teachers in the Church perhaps 200 were disciplined directly by the Church over JPII 26 year reign. No one was shunned by the way most of these were just responses to their criticisms and the removal of their official license to teach in the Church if they even had one. I suspect a whole lot more than that were DFed by the JWs during that time and then shunned.

  Both the Pope and the Governing body both claim inspiration.

  The Pope does NOT claim to be inspired. The Catholic Church teaches that when it comes to matters of faith and morals the Church cannot teach error. To have any kind of religious certainity one must have some kind of belief in this way. For many Protestant Christians a similar belief is that the Scriptures are inerrant and infallible when it comes to issues of faith and morals. In any case, the bishops in union with the Pope when teaching on matters dealing with faith and morals are prevented due to a special charism (gift of the Holy Spirit) from God from teaching heresy. However, the Church gives very specific guidelines for when this happens so that the faithful can know this is the case. Unlike the Governing Body of the JWs where it is merely assumed that everything they say carries this particular charism.

  The official doctrines that have changed dramatically over time

  Actually the teachings of the Catholic Church have remind quite stable over time. This is shocking when you consider that the Catholic Church has been here for over 2000 years. This is one of the things that really shocked me. If you read the writings of Catholics from the 1st Century to today you will find that people like St. Peter, St. Ignatius, St. Clement and others would be quite comfortable being Catholic today. Heck, St. Justin Martyr described how the Christians worshipped during his time period in the 2nd Century A.D. It sounds ALOT like the Mass I attend every Sunday right now. However, I suspect if C.T. Russell were alive today there is no way he would be a JW. He would be considered a Bible Student for sure and would be horrified at how the JWs are.

  Both claim "new light" or progressive revelation to explain doctrinal changes.

  Actually, the Catholic Church teaches that public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle so that there is no new public revelation since then. There is something known as the Development of Doctrine where the public revelation is more completely understood the longer the Church as a whole meditates on what was given to us by Christ and the Apostles.

  In any case, the list above is just a caricature of the Catholic Church and demonstrates a misunderstanding of how the Catholic Church believes and operates.

  I hope that clears some things up.

  Jeff S.

  www.catholicxjw.com
• 

  Jeffro

  FACT: The vast majority of Jehovah's Witnesses were former Catholics.

  What is the source of this 'fact'? It seems much more evident that the vast majority of JWs grew up with JW parents.
• 

  lovelylil

  Jeff,

  With all due respect I am not a "seperated Catholic" and you are proving our point that the Catholic Chruch is just like the WT, feel that they alone are the only true church recognized by God. From what you are saying, then the Catholic church can claim all other christians as part of their faith but somehow in error in their beliefs - what haughtiness!

  You have a right to believe what you want to but it is this kind of thinking that contributed to the hundreds of thousands of people killed by the Catholic church for refusing to bow to its authority. If you read the NT you can clearly see that Christians are called to be free in Jesus Christ. And Jesus started a faith - not a religious establishment. Unless you can show me that Christ, not the early church fathers who came later, established one church only, I will not believe it. The new Testament teaches the truth about the church which is that it is the body of believers themselves tied together through out the world by holy spirit. This is why I say the Catholics are my brothers in the faith. But for them to turn around and say I am a lost brother or sister, I have to strongly disagree with that.

  Some of the early church fathers were very good people who thought they were doing the right thing by organizing some rules and regulations for the church, but where the overstepped the simple rules set out by the Apostles (the Didache), and started adding all kinds of doctrines, creeds, traditions etc. they then overstepped their boundaries, and became no better than all the other authoritarian religions of today. You can read about all these things they did in any biography of Martin Luther. Luther was a long time Catholic Monk, therefore he is a great authority on how the church developed into what it is today. And he shows how and when all the unbiblical practices were adopted - way after Jesus and the Apostles time.

  The Apostle Paul consistantly tells Christians in the NT not to become slaves of men because we are free. We become slaves if and when we submit to an organization claiming sole authority over us instead of remaining free in our one Lord and Master, Jesus Christ.

  Jesus told the Samaritan women that the time was coming when people would worship not on the holy mountain of her ancestors, nor in Jerusalem, but in spirit and truth. He was thereby telling her that the place of worship does not matter at all. As long as you worship in truth. Christians recognize Jesus is the truth therefore they base their worship on him alone.

  Paul says: "God does not dwell in man made temples"

  Christ says: "Where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there".

  You see how simple the arrangement is? What does this have to do with the Catholic church? Nothing!

  Again, I do not fault you because you are not to blame for setting up the system but I STRONGLY disagree with the Catholic Churches assertion that I am their seperated member. They can make whatever claim they want but I assure you they have no authority or claim over me and my faith and they never will. Just like the WT no longer has any authority over me nor any other religion. I am free to attend any church service I wish but do not have to submit to them as my master.

  Since I have tasted freedom in Christ, I will never go back to the elementary things of being dominated by a man made system. I know they call themselves the "universal church" but will never achieve this goal of uniting everyone into their faith. The time is coming when Christ will return and destroy all the religious establishments and social and political structures (Bablylon the Great) that continually try to dominate over us. Not the people who are misled by these establishemnts but the establishments themselves. When that time comes - the Pope and the Catholic Church has a lot of explaining to do, as they slaughtered more of Christ's followers than any other modern church today.

  You seem like a really nice guy Jeff and you answered many in this thread in a respectful way, telling us why you believe what you do and I respect you for that. But we will always have to disagree on your Church's claims of authority over all Christians. It is nothing personal against you as a person and a Christian. I wish you well.
• 

  lovelylil

  Jeffro,

  I should have said those who came out of other religions not those who grew up as witnesses. This has been documented in studies before.

  Also from my personal experience almost 90% of those I knew who came from other churches, were Catholic prior to becoming a witness. I believe the WT realizes this as many of their books and mags are set up to go against Catholic teachings. And they consistantly bash the Catholic church more than any other church.
• 

  jstalin

  The Catholic Church apologist in me just wants to say this: The critical difference between the WT and RCC is that the Catholic Church is just cool. I mean, they have a whole country as their headquarters, a cool heirarchy with cool Swiss guards, and a fascinating history. I've only seen pictures of Bethel and the Vatican blows it out of the freakin water.
• 

  Sad emo

  Jeff:

  1. The comments at the Council of Trent were written in response to the Protestant Reformation. Prior to the Protestant Reformation to be a Christian you were either a Catholic Christian in union with Rome OR you were an Eastern Orthodox Christian in union with one of the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchs. There were no other choices really as to which Church one would belong to. And prior to 1054 A.D. there was really only one Church to belong to and that is the Catholic Church. Since that is the case, the Bible and the New Testament in particular was compiled by the Catholic Church and the religious tradition associated with the Catholic Church. The Church was merely saying that for someone to interpret the Bible (and the New Testament in particular) apart from that tradition was in danger of misunderstanding it. This makes sense since it was from the tradition of the Catholic Church that the New Testament came into being.

  I think its very important to clarify here whether we are talking about the 'catholic' (ie universal) or the Roman Catholic church. Prior to 1054, yes, everyone belonged to the (universal) catholic church and the catholic church agreed the Scriptures as we have them. But definitely not all belonged to the one based in Rome. It was Rome or Constantinople (and not as clear cut as it is today - even half of Italy was under Constantinople for example). Prior to the rise of Islam, there were also the other three patriarchates of Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria. The 'big boys' for doctrinal issues being the latter two of these. It looks like Rome was pretty small fry on the 'catholic' church front other than being a focal point for mission to the rest of the world.

  The Catholic Church views all baptized Christians as part of the Catholic Church. Those Christians not in communion with the Catholic Church are called our "separated brethren". So, actually, you are considered to be in communion with the Catholic Church albeit an imperfect communion.

  I'm trying to understand what you're saying here (confused between 'catholic' and 'Roman Catholic' again?) Are you saying we are still seen as part of the catholic (universal) church but not in communion with the Roman Catholic Church? If not,then there seems to be a contradiction in what you wrote - surely you're either in communion or not in communion and it looks like you just said both

  regards

  emo of the *happy to be in the seperated sistren* class
• 

  jschwehm

  With all due respect I am not a "seperated Catholic" and you are proving our point that the Catholic Chruch is just like the WT; feel that they alone are the only true church recognized by God. From what you are saying, then the Catholic church can claim all other christians as part of their faith but somehow in error in their beliefs - what haughtiness!

  Hi Lil:

  I have a different take on that. I view it as quite charitable actually. The JWs make the claim that unless you are a member of their visible organization that you will be bird food at Armageddon.

  The Catholic Church says that everyone who is baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is connected to the Catholic Church. So, if you were baptized in a Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopal, Baptist,Catholic etc. Church using the Trinitarian formula then you are connected to the Catholic Church (and I do mean the Catholic Church in union with the Bishop of Rome).

  Because of this Protestants are part of the Catholic Family and eligible for eternal salvation. Unfortunately, because my Protestant brothers and sisters reject the authority of the Catholic Church for a variety of reasons and, therefore, the communion between Catholic and Protestant Christians is not perfect (which is why Catholics are not able to share the Eucharist with our Protestant brothers and sisters). However, this separation (or as I like to view it this imperfect communion) does not necessarily mean that my Protestant brothers and sisters will not make it to heaven because they are still a part of the Catholic family of God and they too can be saved just like any Catholic can be saved by the merits of Christ provided we live out the faith of course.

  When that time comes - the Pope and the Catholic Church has a lot of explaining to do, as they slaughtered more of Christ's followers than any other modern church today.

  I was wondering if you could give me specific examples of this from history.

  Thanks,

  Jeff S.
• 

  heathen

  
  jschwehm ---- The catholic church was a totalitarian tryranny back in the dark ages . They murdered people for owning their own bible by burning them at the stake , they murdered jews for not converting . I'd say the catholic church has a way greater blood guilt than the WTBTS . Glad I found these things out as technically I am catholic tho not practicing the religion . The worst thing the church does is claim that by baptizing at infantsy they have somehow vanquished the original sin . They are far worse than the WTBTS when it comes to fabricating dogma .

  heathen of the just tired of being told I will go to hell for not joing your miserable religion class.
• 

  jschwehm

  I'm trying to understand what you're saying here (confused between 'catholic' and 'Roman Catholic' again?) Are you saying we are still seen as part of the catholic (universal) church but not in communion with the Roman Catholic Church? If not,then there seems to be a contradiction in what you wrote - surely you're either in communion or not in communion and it looks like you just said both

  Hi Emo:

  I apologize for not being clearer.

  The Roman Catholic Church is really a misnomer in that the Catholic Church (with the Bishop of Rome as its Universal Pastor) is actually a collection of Churches with different rites. The Catholic Church has a Western Rite also known as the Latin Rite or the Roman Rite which is the largest rite and then there is also the Eastern Rite Churches made up of the Byzantine Rite, the Ukrainian Rite, etc.

  The Catholic Church (this includes all of the Churches in union with the Pope in Rome), views all Christians that have been baptized using the Trinitarian formula whether that was done in a Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Baptist etc. Church as being connected to them as their separated brethren. This communion is of course imperfect because Protestant Christians reject the authority of the Catholic Church. But in the eyes of the Catholic Church this does not mean that Protestant Christianity is not part of the Catholic family. (I hope that clears things up.)

  Prior to 1054, yes, everyone belonged to the (universal) catholic church and the catholic church agreed the Scriptures as we have them. But definitely not all belonged to the one based in Rome. It was Rome or Constantinople (and not as clear cut as it is today - even half of Italy was under Constantinople for example). Prior to the rise of Islam, there were also the other three patriarchates of Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria. The 'big boys' for doctrinal issues being the latter two of these. It looks like Rome was pretty small fry on the 'catholic' church front other than being a focal point for mission to the rest of the world.

  Actually, the writings of the early fathers prior to 1054 do give primacy to the Church in Rome when it came to solving disputes and other issues. You are correct in the sense that not all of the churches were part of the diocese of Rome and that all of the great patriarchates that you mention had their own bishops. However, the fathers of the Church many of them associated with the great patriarchates you mention above did view the Church in Rome as the preeminent Church and the Bishop of Rome did mediate disputes between the bishops. In addition, the fathers make it clear that for a Church to be authentic where ever it was located that Church had to be in union with the Church in Rome and her Bishop.

  Here are some websites that show how the Early Church fathers viewed the Church in Rome and her Bishop.

  http://www.catholic.com/library/Peter_Successors.asp

  http://www.catholic.com/library/Peter_Primacy.asp

  http://www.catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_1.asp

  http://www.catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_2.asp

  Jeff S.

  www.catholicxjw.com