Freedom, Free speech, Censorship, Religion and Tight Pants

by Simon 50 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Simon

  If your parents are threatening the roof over your head ...

  Then you have stupid parents who are using their freedom to make a bad choice in our view.

  If your wife is threatening divorce you and take the kids ...

  Then you have a stupid wife who is using her freedom to make a bad choice in our view.

  While your argument on the whole sounds reasonable, it just doesn't apply equally to cults.

  Sorry, but it does. At what point do you decide that you know best and the other people shouldn't get to make their choices? Do you get to make that choice for everyone? for everything?

  I am not saying that it isn't painful or disappointing. But it's the same as a parent being unhappy with a child that decides they want to drop out of school and become an actor or the wife that wants to run off with the milkman (are they even still a thing?).

  We can't make other people's choices for them if we expect to have freedom and be able to make our own choices. We may not agree with them but they are their choices to make and freedom means many people will make what we consider the wrong ones.

  The only thing we can do is make our own choices. There are no guarantees in life - we can love people and hope they love us back but we cannot make them or make them value our love above other things. We can try and reason with people and convince them to make what we consider the correct choice but we can't force them unless we're happy to sign over considerable freedoms that we likely prefer to keep ourselves.
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  DATA-DOG

  I think the "tight pants" rant can be taken too far. Even so, it needed to be exposed. Why? Because as you mentioned, Simon, the context.

  The context of TOMO's speech was one of hate. He threatened other people and basically accused them of being liars. How? He said, " Your in God's house, you claim to worship the true God?!?!" ( paraphrase) He basically accused anyone who wears Yoga pants of hypocrisy. The WTBTS leaders hold a "sword of Damocles" over people's heads. They literally threaten them with death for disobedience.

  That type of speech needs to be exposed. You can't stop exposing hate speech for fear of being labeled as a "persecutor." It should be done the right way, but just like destroying the WTBTS, never offending someone is a fantasy.

  DD
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  Brokeback Watchtower

  I agree that free speech/writing is very valuable and should not be restricted unless public safety is at stake, but the problem is what constitutes a concern for "public safety"?

  Governments have a very complicated problem of making appropriate laws to safe guard that freedom and not react according to bias be it religious or otherwise.

  Fairness is so hard to define.
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  Simon

  The context of TOMO's speech was one of hate. He threatened other people and basically accused them of being liars. How? He said, " Your in God's house, you claim to worship the true God?!?!" ( paraphrase) He basically accused anyone who wears Yoga pants of hypocrisy.

  I agree that it needs to be 'exposed' because it demonstrates their mentality to the world - but labeling it as hate speech? I think that is going a little too far, actually way too far.

  Their opinion on clothing is not new and it is perfectly compatible with their beliefs and many other conservative christian groups have similar beliefs about anything but old fashioned don't-reveal-anything attire.

  Do we honestly think that the government should or would investigate them? Hate speech is a serious thing and that isn't it. When we make claims like that I think it risks undermining other more valid complaints.

  Governments nave a very complicated problem of making appropriate laws to safe guard that freedom and not react according to bias be it religious or otherwise.

  Fairness is so hard to define.

  Exactly. Here's an example: Westboro Baptist Church is more like hate speech and even that is not illegal (because it's not advocating harm to a group). It's insulting and offensive ... but their beliefs. I would prefer their ability to promote their message was curtailed but they are allowed to believe that "god hates figs" or whatever.

  How would or could you legislate against that and not curtail other people's freedoms at the same time? What you should do is limit their ability to interfere with funerals and such like (make that an offense).
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  GrreatTeacher

  Yes, I'm willing to give up my "choice" to join a cult. Because, accepting the work of Lifton and Sanger, it's not a choice at all. It's a careful program of mind, thought and behavior control that bypasses the rational, thinking self.

  Yes, you have the freedom to choose your religion, but a cult is not a religion, though they hide under their right to freedom of religion in the US.

  I would love to see them recognized and regulated as the danger they are to society.
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  Brokeback Watchtower

  Let me go on the record as saying that I think the whole “Anthony Morris said wearing tight pants is stupid” was overdone. It was a useful vehicle for getting some attention and publicity but got taken a little too far overall and too much was made of it.

  Yes I can see how you might view it that way. I on the other hand think that it was good that it got a lot of attention because it shows up how prejudice and biased this guy really is (if he was just a regular person I would agree with you whole heartedly) But since he is a member of the elite GB and claiming to be some sort of F&DS that got knowledge from God well then I feel great let it be know and let it sink into the psyche of all your readers.

  But I note your concerns that it not occupy to much space on the board. Attention to different topic varies and our crowd seems to get into it which is very natural when you think about it.
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  ABibleStudent

  Freedom has a price.

  So let the price for an organization be, either qualify for tax-exempt status/charitable status and stop using undue influence on members and promoting that members use it against other members, or don't qualify for tax-exempt/charitable status.

  Robert
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  Simon

  Yes, you have the freedom to choose your religion, but a cult is not a religion, though they hide under their right to freedom of religion in the US.

  I would love to see them recognized and regulated as the danger they are to society

  You are missing the point - WHO decides what is an isn't a cult? It's easy with things like "heavens gate" but even then, before they do a mass suicide then what basis do you have for banning them and how do you regulate them?

  Do you suggest having a state accredited faith?

  What about the Duggars and their 19 kids? Surely a cult ... right?

  Does a group have to be a certain size?

  I note your concerns that it not occupy to much space on the board

  Not at all. It was just an example of how we can blow things up out of proportion but also how it's something that's perfectly fine for someone to have as a belief just as it is for us not to believe it.
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  Simon

  So let the price for an organization be, either qualify for tax-exempt status/charitable status and stop using undue influence on members and promoting that members use it against other members, or don't qualify for tax-exempt/charitable status.

  Why not just give tax exempt status only to activities that are charitable work and not religion?

  All religions are scams - just because one manages to grow to millions or billions of members doesn't make it any less of a cult, if anything it makes it more of a cult.
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  Brokeback Watchtower

  Not at all. It was just an example of how we can blow things up out of proportion but also how it's something that's perfectly fine for someone to have as a belief just as it is for us not to believe it.

  Excuse the misunderstanding. But the blowing out of proportion is a viewpoint issue.

  I do agree we are entitled to a belief but we are also not to be sheltered from ridicule from such belief especially when we have become a figure of public attention.