What did Paul mean? (page 2)

AuldSoul

Heck, I can't even figure out all of what Shakespeare meant. And he wrote in my native language...sort of.

It is a sure bet that Paul wasn't including his own writings as inspired. He even specifically disqualifies the possibility of thinking of them as inspired by using the expression "my opinion."

Unless we regard them as inspired in the sense that writing his letters was something he felt divinely compelled to do, which seems very likely, but which would also open up a large vista of other Scripture similarly inspired (motivated).

Respectfully,
AuldSoul

heathen

I think he was talking about the old testament scripture because it all seemed to point to the messiah and was written by prophets . I think he knew his writings were inspired as those of the other apostles since they were holy and chosen by God as prophets .

Apostate Kate

2 Timothy 3:16,172 Timothy 3:16-17 Every writing inspired by God is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction which is in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (World English Bible)

I'll copy some mainstream commentators views on this;

2Ti 3:16
Verse 16. All Scripture. This properly refers to the Old Testament,
and should not be applied to any part of the New Testament, unless
it can be shown that that part was then written, and was included
under the general name of the Scriptures. Comp. 2Pe 3:15-16. But it
includes the whole of the Old Testament, and is the solemn
testimony of Paul that it was all inspired. If now it can be proved that
Paul himself was an inspired man, this settles the question as to the
inspiration of the Old Testament.

Is given by inspiration of God. All this is expressed in the original by
one word qeopneustoV theopneustos. This word occurs nowhere
else in the New Testament. It properly means, God-inspired--from
qeoV, God, and pnew, to breathe, to breathe out. The idea of
breathing upon, or breathing into the soul, is that which the word
naturally conveys. Thus God breathed into the nostrils of Adam the
breath of life, Ge 2:7; and thus the Saviour breathed on his disciples,
and said, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost," Joh 20:22. The idea seems
to have been, that the life was in the breath, and that an intelligent
spirit was communicated with the breath. The expression was used
among the Greeks, and a similar one was employed by the
Romans. Plutarch ed. B. ix, p. 683, 9. touV oneirouV touV
qeopneustouV; Phocylid. 121. thV de qeopneustou
sojihV logoV estin aristoV. Perhaps, however, this is not an
expression of Phocylides, but of the pseudo Phocylides. So it is
understood by Bloomfield. Cicero, pro Arch., 8. poetam--quasi divino
quodam spiritu infiari. The word does not occur in the Septuagint,
but is found in Josephus, C. Ap. i. 7. "The Scriptures of the prophets
who were taught according to the inspiration of God, kata t hn
epipnoian thn apo tou qeou" In regard to the manner of
inspiration, and to the various questions which have been started as
to its nature, nothing can he learned from the use of this word. It
asserts a fact--that the Old Testament was composed under a
Divine influence, which might be represented by breathing on one,
and so imparting life. But the language must be figurative, for God
does not breathe; though the fair inference is that those Scriptures
are as much the production of God, or as much to be traced to him
as life is. Comp. Mt 22:43; 2Pe 1:21. The question as to the degree
of inspiration, and whether it extends to the words of Scripture, and
how far the sacred writers were left to the exercise of their own
faculties, is foreign to the design of these Notes. All that is
necessary to be held is, that the sacred writers were kept from error
on those subjects which were matters of their own observation, or
which pertained to memory; and that there were truths imparted to
them directly by the Spirit of God, which they never could have
arrived at by the unaided exercise of their own minds. Comp. Intro.
to Isaiah and Job.

And is profitable. It is useful, it is adapted to give instruction, to
administer reproof, etc. If "all" Scripture is thus valuable, then we are
to esteem no part of the Old Testament as worthless. There is no
portion of it, even now, which may not be fitted, in certain
circumstances, to furnish us valuable lessons, and, consequently,
no part of it which could be spared from the sacred canon. There is
no part of the human body which is not useful in its place, and no
part of it which can be spared without sensible loss.

For doctrine. For teaching or communicating instruction. Comp.
Cmt. on 1Ti 4:16.

For reproof. On the meaning of the word here rendered reproof
elegcoV--Cmt. on Heb 11:1. It here means, probably, for
convincing; that is, convincing a man of his sins, of the truth and
claims of religion, etc., Cmt. on Joh 16:8.

For correction. The word here used--epanorqwsiV--occurs
nowhere else in the New Testament. It means properly, a setting to
rights, reparation, restoration, (from epanorqow, to right up again,
to restore;) and here means, the leading to a correction or
amendment of life--a reformation. The meaning is, that the
Scriptures are a powerful means of reformation, or of putting men
into the proper condition in regard to morals. After all the means
which have been employed to reform mankind; all the appeals which
are made to them on the score of health, happiness, respectability,
property, and long life, the word of God is still the most powerful and
the most effectual means of recovering those who have fallen into
vice. No reformation can be permanent which is not based on the
principles of the word of God.

For instruction in righteousness. Instruction in regard to the
principles of justice, or what is right. Man needs not only to be made
acquainted with truth, to be convinced of his error, and to be
reformed; but he needs to be taught what is right, or what is required
of him, in order that he may lead a holy life. Every reformed and
regenerated man needs instruction, and should not be left merely
with the evidence that he is reformed, or converted, he should be
followed with the principles of the word of God, to show him how he
may lead an upright life. The Scriptures furnish the rules of holy living
in abundance, and thus they are adapted to the whole work of
recovering man, and of guiding him to heaven.

{a} "All scripture" 2Pe 1:21
{b} "is profitable" Ro 15:4
Barnes

2Ti 3:16
Our apostle closes this chapter with an exhortation to Timothy to
persevere in his study of the holy scriptues, by an argument drawn,

1. From the dignity and authority of the scriptures; 2. From their
utility; 3. From their perfection.

1. From their dignity and authority,They are given by the
inspiration of God: that is, they are not the contrivance of any
man's wit and fancy, but a revelation of the mind and will of God; and
those that wrote them were excited to it, and assisted in it, by the
Spirit of God; no part of scripture had either angels or men for its
author, but every part of scripture is divinely inspired or breathed by
God, both for matter and order, style and words.

A second argument is drawn from the utility and sufficiency of the
holy scriptures; they are profitable for doctrine and instruction,
teaching us what to know and believe in order to salvation,
concerning God, and Christ, and ourselves, &c. for reproof of error,
and confutation of false doctrines, for correction of sin and evil
manners, for instruction in righteousness, directing us how to
lead a holy and righteous life, according to the will of God.

A third argument is taken from the perfection of them; they are able
to make the man of God perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all
good works; that is, to make the ministers of Christ complete in
knowledge, faith, and holiness, every way fitted for their work and
duty, as Christians, and as ministers.

Observe here, 1. That the scriptures of the Old Testament, and not
of the New, must be the scriptures here intended, they being the
only scriptures which Timothy had known from a child; that was
before the scriptures of the new Testament were written.

Observe, 2. That the apostle doth not say that these scriptures were
of themselves sufficient to make Timothy wise unto salvation, but
only that with faith in Christ Jesus they were sufficient for that end;
much more then must the scriptures both of the Old and New
Testament together, when accompanied with faith in Jesus Christ,
be sufficent for that end.

Observe, 3. That the scriptures are a perfect, plain, and sufficient
rule, in all things necessary to salvation.

1. They are a perfect rule; because the writers of them were inspired,
and consequently their writings are infallible.

2. They are a plain rule; otherwise they would be no rule at all, of no
more use to direct our faith and practice than a sun-dial in a dark
room is to tell us the hour of the day. A rule that is not plain,
whatever it may be in itself, is of no use to us till it is made plain.

3. They are a sufficient rule; they are able to make the man of God
perfect, and wise to salvation. Here the church of Rome
distinguishes, and says, the scriptures are sufficient to salvation, but
not to instruction, to whom one of the martyrs replied, "If so, God
send me the salvation and you the instruction."

It is conceived by some that this was the last epistle that ever St.
Paul wrote; if so, this is the last charge that ever he gave, and
concerns us the more to attend to the solemnity of it. The chapter
before us is St. Paul's Cygnea Cantio, his last and sweetest song;
by a spiritual sagacity he saw his end approaching, and the time of
his martyrdom to be at hand; he therefore, like a dying man, adjures
TImothy in a most awful and tremendous manner, to preach the word
with all diligence and care, which he had so highly extolled in the
foregoing chapter, as being able to make all persons wise unto
salvation.
Burkitt

Hope that helps. Everyone who is interested in Bible interpretation should have a Swordsearch program. It is a world of info at your fingertips. We can read what many highly educated Greek and Hebrew scholar's thoughts were, and then decide for ourselves what something meant.

Narkissos

AK-Jeff,

I mentioned the authorship issue because it was related to one minor aspect of your initial post, i.e. whether most of the NT texts were already written or not at the time of the Pastorals.

BlackSwan,

Sorry for the obscurity. I'll try to rephrase it:

By "all Scripture" the author of 2 Timothy 3:16f does not limit himself to the specific list of books which happen to compose our "Bible canon". The reference to "Jannes and Jambres" in 2 Timothy 3:8f is based on Jewish works which did not find their way into the Hebrew Bible (OT).

Whether he counted Christian works as part of "all Scripture" is dubious. The author of 2 Peter does that, mentioning Paul's letters along with "the rest of Scripture" or "the other Scriptures". But, overall, the author of the Pastorals (1-2 Timothy, Titus) is very critical of so-called "false teachers" among Christians, so he would probably not welcome any Christian writing into "all Scripture". Otoh, most NT writers (and later Church Fathers) are ready to accept any Jewish writing inasmuch as they feel they can use it as a source of "proof-texts" or "spiritual/moral examples" for Christianity (as is obvious from the reference to Jannes and Jambres, or the use of 1 Enoch in Jude).

Forscher

Obviously Paul would've considered the Hebrew writings accepted as scripture at the time among the "scriptures he was talking about. As Nark mentioned his and other's reference to things found in literature not among our modern day canon means that we don't know exactly what he and others took to be "scripture". I am of the group who attributes to Matthew a fairly early writing and personally think he May have included it in his mind though I am sure that Nark and Leo, with their reliance on higher criticism would argue that one Ad Infinitum. But that is my personal opinion. All that can be said for sure is that we don't reaaly know for sure which of "scriptural" works out there in his time was accepted by him, and the churches who looked to him, as scripture.
Forscher

stevenyc

Also, during the refermation, the prostants removed the books; 1 and 2 Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom, Baruch, Tobit, and Judith, and parts of two others, Daniel and Esther.

steve

A Paduan

the sacred writings which are able to instruct you
It seems to me that certain groups have utilised these words to enforce law, rather than engage in humanities.

It doesn't say "the Law " - nor does it say "profitable for punishment"

AK - Jeff

stevennyc - Interesting point. I never thought of that aspect. I always thought of the catholics adding those books - when in fact they were removed? Would that qualify the protestants as having 'altered the word of God'? Making them all 'apostate'?

When were these books removed - any history on that?

Jeff

heathen

From what I understand only stuff that could be proven to be authentic was accepted for the bible . Alot of things were written that couldn't be verified . I think Daniel just barely made it , probly because it's hard to believe an entire nation could be up rooted the way they were to babylon . Personally I think the bible is long enough and the most important part being the new testament has plenty of information . The way it is it has caused more misery and suffering than any book ever in the history of man .

What did Paul mean?

serendipity

AuldSoul

heathen

Apostate Kate

Narkissos

Forscher

stevenyc

A Paduan

AK - Jeff

heathen

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