Some scripture you will hear on 21 May at very many churches

by A Paduan 53 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  A Paduan

  Are we reading the same Bible? I'm quoting from the KJV..............it says........Him shall ye hear in ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER he shall say to you....

  So why would you read it as Him shall ye hear OBEY in ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER he shall say to you (and OR ELSE)... ?

  Acts 3:23 says that they "shall be destroyed."

  Acts 3:23 says that every soul which will not hear that prophet shall be destroyed from among the people

  Start with 'soul': it's the you that is 'I am who I am' - not the 'I am who they said I should be if I want to pass some judgement and test' - who or what is that ? as an insight, recall the term "borg", and recall the scripture, away from me I don't know who you are How can he say I don't know who you are ? It's to do with whether or not you even are who you are, or whether "you" don't even exist anymore (destroyed) - and that is your soul. Acts 3:23 teaches (me) that when you refuse to listen to the light of wisdom, the "you" is traded for something else (and the widow (soul) cried, "Avenge me against my adversary" (the flesh)) . You can end up being destroyed - a loss from among those who would be whole - it's not like some far off physical execution - it teaches how things are,

  to me anyway

  paduan
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  BluesBrother

  Part of a discussion that spans John chaps 14 - 16 . I guess you would have discuss the whole thing to see it in context. Jesus was certainly bringing the disciples into a closer relationship than those he called slaves.

  I only remember that the WTS said it did not apply to me, only the mythical 9000 or so of the "remnant"
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  scout575

  A Paduan: You question why I understand the word ''hear", at Acts 3:23 to mean 'obey'. If the word "hear", in this context simply means to listen, that would mean that anyone merely listening to Jesus would escape the threatened punishment of destruction. I as an atheist often 'listen' to Jesus, as I read the Bible, but I doubt whether the writer of Acts 3:23 would fancy my chances of escaping the threatened punishment of being "destroyed". Its my failure to comply with what I "hear", my failure to obey that, according to this verse, puts me in line for being "destroyed".

  As for your understanding of the word "destroyed", in this verse: When Ananias and Sapphira failed to "hear" ( obey ) Jesus ( in that they 'lied to the Holy Spirit' ), what did their being "destroyed" mean for them? There was nothing figurative about their being "destroyed". They were simply executed by heaven.
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  Sad emo

  What about all the people who now use ex-Christian websites and message boards? Many of them were clearly genuine, heartfelt Christians ( Not "pretend" ones ) and yet they became 'unfruitful' because they came to regard Christianity as just another ancient susperstition. As they are now, 'not hearing' Jesus, Acts 3:23 says that they "shall be destroyed."

  Maybe people leave Christianity, not because of any failure on their part, not because they were "pretend" Christians, but because of a failure of Christianity itself, and because Christianity itself is pretending to be something that it isn't, i.e, a God-given religion.

  Re the first paragraph - You quoted Acts 3:23, I concur with what A Paduan said. My translation reads 'Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among their people' - not quite the same as eternal destruction which you seem to imply (please forgive me if I misunderstood). To be 'cut off' from the people in Israelite terms was to be excluded from the camp - either temporarily or permanently depending on the uncleanness concerned. Compare this to occasions when Jesus referred to those who would 'be left outside where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth' (Another 'gruesome' Scripture lol!)

  Now, to quote LittleToe from the 'Heaven and Hell' thread:

  'Are they "places" or "states in relation to God?"'

  And again, regardless of the reasons for doing it (you cite ex-Christians who came to regard Christianity as another ancient superstition) who has done the rejecting - the vine or the ingrafted branch? It's a simple fact of gardening, it might 'sound' unfair but that's what happens. I say again, this is an exhortation to Christians to abide and grow more fruitful rather than a threat of destruction if you're not a Christian.

  btw I admit "pretend" was not a good choice of word but I think you knew what I meant!
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  scout575

  Sad emo: You say that to be 'cut off', in Israelite terms, is referring to being excluded from the camp, rather than it being a reference to capital punishment. However, at Exodus 31:14, it says: "Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you; every one that defileth it shall be PUT TO DEATH; for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be CUT OFF from among his people." Clearly, being "cut off" means the same thing as being "put to death". See also Leviticus 23:29,30.
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  Sad emo

  Scout

  To be 'cut off' from the rest of the Israelite camp was as good as being dead to the one who suffered such punishment. It's important to remember here that their view of the Promised Land was an earthly one, the Israelites were God's Chosen People - to be put outside the camp was to be cut off from God's blessings, away from the only one who could make them holy again, they were outside of his mercy.

  It is in this context that I understand the OT renderings of being 'cut off' - compare again with Jesus' words 'outside...weeping, gnashing of teeth etc'

  There is also significance here to Jesus being crucified outside the city walls. Think about it.

  Also, had it meant literal death, why did Jesus ask the Pharisees about doing acts of mercy on the Sabbath eg pulling the animal out of a pit? They wouldn't have dared even to contemplate doing this had there been a literal death penalty - perhaps doing an act of kindness rendered them ritually unclean until sunset or for a little longer?

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  LittleToe from the 'Heaven and Hell' thread:

  'Are they "places" or "states in relation to God?"'
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  scout575

  Sad emo; The text at Exodus 31:14 couldn't be clearer. It says: "Surely PUT TO DEATH." What more would you like it to say? When Moses found the man who was working on the sabbath, was he expelled from the camp, or was he executed? Notice what Numbers 15:36 says happened to him: "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and STONED HIM with stones, and he DIED; as the Lord commanded Moses."
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  A Paduan

  Clearly, being "cut off" means the same thing as being "put to death".

  Said by yourself the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live

  what did their being "destroyed" mean for them? There was nothing figurative about their being "destroyed".

  my Bible doesn't say "they were destroyed" - it simply says 'fell down and died' - did you know for a fact that it's really not figurative ?

  I haven't recalled thinking about this particular burying, but have you thought about what 'burying' may mean - as Moses buried, and Tobias was tired of burying - for me it's about penance, act in repentance - it's also tied in with digging (of course) - people dig far enough in the hope for water

  do you think you could understand this language

  paduan
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  scout575

  A Paduan: When the story at Acts 5:5 says of Ananais: "( He ) Fell down and GAVE UP THE GHOST", its referring to his LITERAL death. When Jesus was killed, the account at Luke 23: 46, says: " He GAVE UP THE GHOST." Clearly, both Jesus AND Ananias are described as LITERALLY dying.

  When Acts 5:6 says of Ananias: "And the young men arose, WOUND HIM UP, and carried him out", its referring to his being LITERALLY dead. When Jesus was killed, the account at John 19:40, says: "Then took they the body, and WOUND it in linen clothes". Clearly, both Jesus AND Ananias LITERALLY died.

  When Acts 5:10, says of Sapphira: "Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in and found her DEAD", its referring to LITERAL death. The account at Mark 15:44,45 says regarding Jesus: "And Pilate marvelled if he were already DEAD: and calling unto him the centurian, he asked him whether he had been any while DEAD. And when he KNEW OF IT, he gave the body to Joseph." Clearly, both Jesus AND Sapphira were LITERALLY dead.

  When Acts 5: 6, says of Ananias: "And the young men arose, wound him up and carried him out and BURIED him", its referring to a LITERAL burial. The account at John 19:40, says of Jesus: "Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to BURY." Clearly, both Jesus AND Ananias were LITERALLY BURIED."

  Whilst the Ananias and Sapphira story doesn't explicitly say that they were killed by heaven, the implication is undeniable. To attribute the deaths of these two people to natural causes, or to say that their deaths and burials are not to be taken literally, is to read into the account, things that simply aren't there.
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  A Paduan

  A Paduan: When the story at Acts 5:5 says of Ananais: "( He ) Fell down and GAVE UP THE GHOST", its referring to his LITERAL death. When Jesus was killed, the account at Luke 23: 46, says: " He GAVE UP THE GHOST." Clearly, both Jesus AND Ananias are described as LITERALLY dying.

  How is it so clear ? - here's another ghost story
  
  "When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes through waterless places seeking rest; and finding none he says, `I will return to my house from which I came.'
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  "as the manner of the Jews is to bury" - wow, you put forward that phrase in a superficial manner and insist this is all something literal, and also, no-one should believe it - different people see different things
  he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical

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  did you read the story of how the kingdom is like a treasure that's simply sitting under a rock in the middle of a field ?