To Leoleia, Blondie and Other Research Hounds

by Farkel 10 Replies latest jw friends

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    I am too lazy to look this up these days. Various religions, including the Watchtower use the term "elder". I know the Bible uses that term and that is roughly called, "older men." My question is: does the Bible use the terms "elder" or "older men" as a TITLE(tm) which implies much authority, or does it just to refer to them as experienced and older followers of Christ who should be respected with regards to their comments and experience?

    Has anyone done any work on this one? I want to write a piece on my earlier life and any information on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

    Farkel, lazy researcher CLASS

  • gumby
    gumby


    Here's somethin I pulled right otta me arse. It might help a tad... and...... I'm tryin to beat Blondie and Leolaia.

    1. AARON » Summoned to Sinai with Nadab, Abihu, and seventy elders (Exodus 19:24;24:1,9,10)
    2. BISHOP » A TITLE OF JESUS » See ELDER
    3. ELDER » (Equivalent to the title senator, in present use) » Elders, with delegated powers, were authorized to act for their constituency (Deuteronomy 1:13,15)
    4. FALSEHOOD » INSTANCES OF » The Gibeonites, ambassadors, in the deception they perpetrated upon Joshua and the elders of Israel in leading them to believe that they came from a distant region, when in fact they lived in the immediate vicinity (Joshua 9)
    5. FASTING » INSTANCES OF » Of the consecration of the elders (Acts 14:23)
    6. GOVERNMENT » REPRESENTATIVE » See
    7. GOVERNMENT » THEOCRATIC » See ELDER
    8. HOLY SPIRIT » INSPIRATION OF » The seventy elders (Numbers 11:17)
    9. JEPHTHAH » Recalled from the land of Tob by the elders of Gilead (Judges 11:5)
    10. JURY » Of seventy men, elders (senators) (Numbers 11:16,17,24,25)
    11. LYSTRA » Congregation of, elders ordained for, by Paul and Barnabas (Acts 14:23)
    12. MAGNANIMITY » INSTANCES OF » Joshua and the elders of Israel to the Gibeonites who had deceived the Israelites (Joshua 9:3-27)
    13. MEDAD » One of the seventy elders who did not go to the tabernacle with Moses, but prophesied in the camp (Numbers 11:26-29)
    14. MILETUS » And sends to Ephesus for the elders of the congregation, and addresses them at (Acts 20:17-38)
    15. MINISTER, Christian » Called » ELDERS (1 Timothy 5:17; 1 Peter 5:1)
    16. OATH » The elders of Gilead confirm their pledge to Jephthah by (Judges 11:10)
    17. OFFICER » RELIGIOUS » See ELDER
    18. OPINION, PUBLIC » CONCESSIONS TO » James and the Christian elders, who required Paul to observe certain rites (Acts 21:18-26)
    19. PAUL » Escapes to Derbe, where he preaches the gospel, and returns to Lystra, and to Iconium, and to Antioch, strengthens the souls of the disciples, exhorts them to continue in the faith, and helps to appoint elders (Acts 14:19-23)
    20. PAUL » Refers the question of circumcision to the apostles and elders at Jerusalem (Acts 15:2,4)
    21. PAUL » Sends for the elders of the congregation of Ephesus; relates to them how he had preached in Asia and his temptations and afflictions, urging repentance toward God (Acts 20:17-21)
    22. PETER » Advocates the preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles in the hearing of the apostles and elders (Acts 11:1-18;15:7-11)
    23. PRESBYTER » See ELDER
    24. PRUDENCE » INSTANCES OF » Certain elders of Israel (Jeremiah 26:17-23)
    25. PURIFICATION » Traditions of the elders concerning (Matthew 15:2; Mark 7:2-5,8,9; Luke 11:38)
    Gumdummy
  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    The word presbuteros "elder", like most other eventual ecclesiastical terms, acquired its technical ecclesiastical sense gradually, but such developments build on earlier technical usages of the term. In the OT (LXX), the term is used to refer to village leaders who had administrative and judicial duties; one may think of the seventy "elders of Israel" of Exodus 24:1-4, Numbers 11:16 (representing the 70 sons of Israel and/or the 70 patron deities of the nations), the "community/town elders" of Leviticus 4:15, Deuteronomy 21:2-3, or the "elders and nobles" in 1 Kings 21:8, 11. In the literature of the Second Temple period, presbuteroi continued to refer to civic leaders (cf. "elders of the Jews" in Ezra 6:7 LXX, "officials and elders" in Ezra 10:8 LXX, the community "elders" of Daniel 13:5, 8 LXX), but they also referred to the Sanhedrin members specifically (cf. Acts 5:22) and leaders of local synagogues. Thus, in the synoptic gospels, one regularly encounters "elders of the people" grouped with the "chief priests" and the "teachers of the Law" (cf. Matthew 21:23, 26:3, 57, 27:41; Mark 14:43, 15:1; Luke 9:22, 20:1), or designated as halakhic tradents (cf. Matthew 15:2), tho the elders in this case probably has the sense of "ancient men" or "forefathers" (as in Hebrews 11:2).

    In the NT, presbuteros in Christian usage is confined to Acts, the general epistles and the Pastorals; it is absent in the Pauline correspondence (Paul calls himself presbutés "the aged" in Philemon 9, but this is a different term), so a probable deduction is that this was not used as a technical term of status in Pauline churches, at least during Paul's lifetime. Acts however uses the term in reference to the apostolic period, and clearly describes it as a kind of office. Thus we find "apostles and elders" (apostolous kai presbuterous) in Acts 15:2, 4, 6, 22-23, 16:4, and the latter text places the "apostles and elders" in Jerusalem and describes them as deciding decrees. The term is used in a way that suggests that the reference is to the most important men in the movement who were not apostles. One may also think of later traditions of the Seventy (i.e. Dorotheus of Tyre), which ennumerate leaders of the early church outside of the Twelve, or the "pillars" described by Paul in Galatians 2:9 (which includes both Cephas and James the Just). Acts 14:23 refers to Paul and Barnabas as "appointing elders for them in every church", a passage that clearly denotes a kind of office tho the specific status is unclear. Is this a single presbuteros for each church (like the episkopoi "bishops" of the early second century), or a number of elders within each church (like the modern JW concept of "elder")?

    Since Acts may well retroject later circumstances anachronistically into the early apostolic period, it is unclear whether the presbuteroi described therein pertain more from the time the book was written (i.e. after AD 95 imho) or from the period itself. The term is strikingly absent in Paul, but it appears in the Pastorals, written between AD 80 and 120. The Pastorals also give church order instructions for the episkopoi "bishops" and diakonoi "deacons" (cf. 1 Timothy 3) and assume a more developed ecclesiastical structure than in the earlier period. There are similar instructions for the presbuteroi (Titus 2:3) and for others concerning how elders are to be treated (1 Timothy 5:1, 19). That presbuteroi was a term of ecclesiastical status is indicated by the phrase hoi kalós proestótes presbuteroi "the taking-the-lead-well elders," suggesting that they had congregational authority. But was this a status accorded to esteemed older men, or was it an office that people regardless of age were appointed to (as Acts 14:23 would have it)? The texts are unclear. What is even more unclear is the use of the feminine form presbuteras in 1 Timothy 5:2 and Titus 2:3. Scholars debate whether this simply meant "older women" (suggesting that the presbuteroi correspondingly referred to older men of authority) or constituted a female office as well. Considering the patriarchal attitudes towards women in the Pastorals (e.g. 1 Timothy 2:9-15, 3:11, 4:7, 5:2; 2 Timothy 3:6; Titus 2:3-4), the second possibility seems less probable than the first.

    In 1 Peter 5:1-5, the author writing in the name of the apostle refers to himself as a "fellow elder" giving instruction to the elders in the churches in a manner very similar to the Pastorals. Moreover, the term presbuteroi is contrasted with the neóteroi "younger men," clearly indicating that the term referred to older men with ecclesiastical status (as opposed to a particular office open to men of various ages), which is also the probable sense in the Pastorals. Their authoritative status is clear from such phrases as "shepherd the flock," "lording it over others," and "exercising oversight" in v. 2-3. What is not clear from these texts is whether there was a single presbuteros per church, or whether there were a body of elders in each church; the plural may simply the fact that 1 Peter is a general epistle addressed to multiple churches, tho the contrast with "younger men" may imply a number of elders in each congregation. James 5:14, in another general epistle addressed to multiple churches (1:1), makes reference to the "elders of the church" who have as among their duties healing the sick through prayer and anointing (cf. 1 Timothy 4:14 concerning the laying of hands by the presbuteroi).

    It is in the Johannine writings and in Papias where we gain a clearer picture of the identity of the presbuteroi, at least in the early second century. The author of 2 John 1 and 3 John 1 refers to himself as "the elder" (ho presbuteros), and this individual is almost certainly the "John the presbyter" known to Papias of Hierapolis (writing c. 130-140) who was the "presbyter" of the church of Ephesus. Papias would cite him simply as "the presbyter", e.g. "And the elder (ho presbuteros) would say this..." (cf. Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 3.39.15). Irenaeus, writing in Adversus Haereses (c. 180-190), also incorporated traditions from "the elders" which likely go back to the circle of Papias and are associated (erroneously?) by Irenaeus to the Apostle John. Papias himself used the term presbuteroi to refer to apostles and acquaintances of the apostles who were passing on Jesuine traditions, and specifically distinguished the "John the Elder" known to him (i.e. the leader of the church of Ephesus) from Apostle John:

    "But I will not hesitate to supplement at any time for you too the interpretations with whatever I learned thoroughly and remembered thoroughly from the presbyters, since I am confident in the truth on their account. For unlike many I was not delighted with those who say many things but with those who teach the truth, or with those who remember not the commandments of others but those given by the Lord to the faith and derived from truth itself. But whenever someone who had followed the presbyters came along, I would carefully ask about the words of the presbyters, what Andrew or what Peter had said or what Philip or what Thomas or James or what John or Matthew or any other of the disciples of the Lord [had said], and what Aristion and the presbyter John, disciples of the Lord say as well. For I did not assume that whatever comes from books is as helpful to me as what comes from a living and lasting voice" (Papias of Hierapolis, cf. Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 3.39.3-4).

    It would seem here that the elders are men who, by virtue of their advanced age, are regarded as reliable sources of information about Jesus and thus have substantial personal authority, if not ecclesiastical authority as Aristion (linked to Pseudo-Mark in one MS) and John the Elder seem to have had. Overall, the picture seems to be that the presbuteroi were older men with considerable authority by virtue of their age and experience and who were the object of church order instructions like "bishops" and "deacons" were. But to what extent did the presbuteroi overlap with other offices (e.g. was John the Elder the bishop of Ephesus?) or include men who were considered young (e.g. were the presbuteroi appointed to the churches in Acts 14:23 all older men?)? There is much that is uncertain because the sources are too meager.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Leo:

    The term is strikingly absent in Paul, but it appears in the Pastorals, written between AD 80 and 120.

    You've lost me with this comment. Isn't this a contradiction in terms, since the pastorals are attributed to Paul (at least in most peoples' eyes)?

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    In the eyes of most scholars, the pastorals are not attributed to Paul. (Paul is often only credited with Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians and Philemon.)

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat
    In the eyes of most scholars, the pastorals are not attributed to Paul. (Paul is often only credited with Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians and Philemon.)

    Yep. Only the most conservative scholars, like D A Carson, still believe that Paul wrote the pastorals. As you say, most would also argue that Paul did not write Ephesians or Colossians either.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    That the concept of "college" or "body of elders" is part of the NT complex picture is apparent from the fact that there is a specific word for it, presbuterion (1 Timothy 4:14).

    Although not recent, Bornkamm's survey in TDNT VI is very enlightening. Here's an excerpt (p. 667f):

    A surprising point in the Pastorals is that the bishop plays an important part here as well as the presbyters (...) and that his functions are the same (cf. with 1 Tm. 5:17 prostènai [to preside] in 3:5; didaktikon [apt to teach] in 3:2; cf. also Tt. 1:9). It is only natural to suppose that the offices are one and the same in the Pastorals. Only thus can one explain the fact that just after Titus is told to appoint elders (A:5) the portrait of a bishop is given (vv. 7ff.). Yet one can hardly make a complete equation. This is proved by the simple fact that in the Pastorals episkopos is always in the singular while the presbutèroi form a college.

    Again, the passages which refer to the presbuteroi may be clearly distinguished from those which treat of the episkopos (and diakonos), 1 Tm. 3:1-7,8-13. Only in the change from plur. to sing. and the separate enumeration of qualifications are arguments against an equation of the titles. Since, however, the three offices of bishop, presbyters and deacons are never mentioned together, they cannot be interrelated along the lines of a three-tiered hierarchy. On the contrary, one may affirm that the passages about the bishop reflect a different constitutional principle from those about presbyters and that already in the Past. there is a plain tendency for monarchical episcopate to merge with the presbyterate derived from Jewish tradition -- a process which, at an earlier stage of development, one may see too in Ac. 20:17,28 in relation to the same geographical area (Asia Minor), and which is also to be seen in respect of Rome in 1Cl[ement]... This process is easily explained by the fact that long since the presbuteroi had no longer been regarded as the natural representatives of the community but as the college of leaders appointed for the local churches by the apostles (Ac. 14:23) or their successors (Tt. 1:5), and it had become necessary to entrust certain administrative functions to individuals notwithstanding the partiarchal authority of all the presbyters. Within the total structure of the congregation, then, the bishops are to be seen as presbuteroi proestôtes [presiding elders] or episkopountes [overseeing elders]. "At all events this is a developed identification, not one which was intrinsic from the very first." [Dibelius]
  • DannyHaszard
    DannyHaszard
    Farkel, lazy researcher CLASS

    You don't give yourself enough credit mate,your a classic composer and essayist.

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    Farkel:

    As you know I am NOT a scholar but I started a thread on this very subject that took some interesting twists and turns with a poster named "Euphemism"

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/57801/1.ashx

  • greendawn
    greendawn

    The JW elders are not always older men they could be in their 20's in some cases. However the Greek word presbyteros does refer to older people. It was synonymous with the word bishop (episkopos) in the early church though later it came to be a rank under the (subsequently) superior bishop.

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