Do Satan and Jesus exist?

by Amazing1914 19 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing1914
    Amazing1914

    Since some seem perfectly at ease to depersonalize the Holy Spirit, and claim that any mention of the Holy Spirit as talking, or as "he, him, or his" are mere personifications, then this rule can be applied anywhere.

    Satan is not a real person. The Bible only makes him sound like one because the Bible writers all use personification whenever they talk about Satan. Why, because according to the arguments of some, Wisdom is personified in Proverbs, or the mountains cry out, or the trees laugh, that Satan is not a person either.

    But, but, but ... what about when Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness? Well, first of all the non-person called the Spirit or Holy Spirit led Jesus there, so it was likely just a personified experience ... but then when Jesus was tempted, it was merely the potential evil that we like to call Satan that was egging him on.

    Nooooo ... a perfect man cannot be tempted by evil, so it must have been a real Satan. Yes, but the premise is that Satan is not a person because it says in Proverbs that Wisdom cried out and the Mountains sing, so Satan is just being personified. In order for Jesus to be tested, he must have at least had the potential to sin, and in order to have that potential, he must have at least felt some twinge in his human flesh. So, that little potential evil in us all, whether perfect or imperfect must be Satan. Yes, it all makes sense; because in Proverbs, Wisdom cries, mountains laugh, and tree whine ...

    Of course, we have another problem. What? Well, there is this pesky issue that no secular historian ever mentions Jesus except Flavius Josephus in his two little comments in his volumnous writings ... and those two little mentionings were shown to likely be spurious. No, Jesus is the clever invention of rebellious Jews who wanted to get a new religion going ... and could not cut it at the Synagogue. So they were expelled as apostates and used Jesus name for their marketing image. Because, you see, Jesus is not a real person, but only a personification of a good man, who himself was only poeticly tested by a personified Satan, in a place where the personified Holy Spirit led him in a personified way.

    Why can I say these things? Because in Proverbs it shows that Wisdom is personified because it cries out, the trees laugh, and the sea sings.

    But how can Jesus have died for us is he is only a personification? Because we do not have souls, we are only said to have life. Our future lives are not here yet, so our current existence is fixed on dying. So, we live only figuratively, and our future lives are thus personified, because in a real sense we do not live. How can this be? Because in Proverbs is says that Wisdom cries out, the mountains laugh, and the trees blush.

    But, then how can a figurative Jesus' figurative death really save us if we are already dead, or not alive yet? Because Adam and Eve are really only figurative people who figuratively sinned in a figurative garden, tempted by their inner evil by a personified Satan. How can this be? Because, it says in Proverbs that Wisdom laughs at you, trees sing rich melodies, and mountains belch ...

    Well then, how can their figurative sin really count if they are only personified figurative people tempted by a personified Satan? Don't you get it yet, it is simple you see; in proverbs it says Widsom cries out ....

    Jim Whitney

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Someone's on a roll - LOL

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    Our future lives are not here yet, so our current existence is fixed on dying

    How sad for you. My life is here right now. My current existence if fixed on LIVING in the here and now, in the wondrous reality of being, in the amazement of nature, science, passion, love, art, music and humanity. How sad to have the rationale for your existence contingent on the delusion of a "hypothetical" afterlife. You are here now, and you can either fully actualize your ephemeral reality as a fully realized human being, or cower in the fear of fictional deities.....

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Jim,

    I have the answer for this post but refuse to give it because you have shown in this post and your previous ones that you have a tremendous ego and whenever someone disgrees with you, you throw a total tantrum. You are allowed your opinion on what or who you think the Holy Spirit is, but everyone else is also entitled to their opinion. I

    f you are posting information on a forum like this one, you will get opinions from people of all backgrounds and views. You are proving that you are not an open minded person. But yet, you want people to be open minded with you. No one is going to agree with everything you do and if you had the right Spirit, you would understand this.

    I was giving my personal views as someone who has experience the Holy Spirit first hand, I believe I would know what the nature of it is. I do not need the views of the early church fathers or anyone else on the matter. I have first hand experience.

    I wish you the best with your paper and trying to prove your point. I respectfully disagree but am not going to argue the point any longer. This is in the interest of peace.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Lovelylil:
    Tis a satire, me deario.

    Jim's a good sort. Don't let his gruff exterior put ya off him

  • Tea4Two
    Tea4Two

    Little Toe, Jim went to a lot of trouble for satire....to each his own!

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Sometimes we forget that you gals have only been here a month or two

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Little toe,

    trust me it is sarcasm because it starts out as "since some people feel at ease depersonalizing the Holy Spirit" and this is the issue Jim and I do not agree on. But on another thread I just said enough already. We have to agree to disagree in the name of Peace becuase we were going at it until late last night on the topic and not agreeing. Then, this piece turns up. It is what Jim does when someone disagrees. He does not just realize that he cannot control everyone else's beliefs only his own. And if you post an idea on a public forum, you are bound to have some who do not agree. But, you need to take it all in stride.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    This is a big forum, which thousands of posters, threads and posts.

    Do ya really think Jim's that petty to go to all that effort?

    I've been posting on threads with him for over four years and never seen him do that. I guess there's always a first time for everything, but that's not his usual MO.

    Just my 2p

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    The "personality vs. personification" argument cuts both ways.

    If we consider Luke-Acts as a literary unit, the same work which personalises/personifies the Spirit (pneuma, neuter), having it talking etc., also personalises/personifies Wisdom (sophia, feminine) in a very similar way.

    E.g. Luke 7:35: "Wisdom is vindicated by all her children."

    11:49ff: "Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,' so that this generation may be charged with the blood of all the prophets shed since the foundation of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary."

    So why, indeed, talk of personality in one case and of personification in the other?

    (I repeat myself: I think the qualification of the Holy Spirit as hypostasis or persona in the 4th-century definitions has little to do with these literary features, as well as with the popular concept of "person" = "individual". No wonder to me that those who fail to see this difference also fail to see the difference between "orthodox" Trinity and "heretical" tritheism = three individuals of the God-kind).

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