After much thought and research, I with heavy heart, must say YES. I know there is a creator or supreme being of somekind. The chances of life just happening flies in the face of all mathmatical probability models. So has anyone figured out WHY would someone create life on earth, with animals and humans, especially, having the ability and desire to live ad infinitum? I really just do not understand. The more I research religion, the more I find its a way of self denial to the realities of life. Maybe living in "fantasy land" is better for ones state of mind, because when you start digging and the truth becomes appearent, you just cannot forget, nor go back. I guess what bothers me the most is that if a creator does exist, you would think he would show some sort of inkling to care. As other posts have mentioned the whole Univ. Sov. issue is a farce. It shows god to be weak and vunerable. Any other theories? Biblical thoughts? Perhaps there is justice in what is happening (at least thats how I appease my mind), and because of my inferior intellect I just cannot grasp the meaning. I don't know, but life in its entirety makes no sense. Might as well, "Eat and drink, for tomorrow I might die"...
WARNING: Is this life all there is? JW's etal believe what you are told...
by sinis 9 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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lovelylil
Sinis,
This has been spoken about a lot on this forum. And it only ends with an arguement about whether or not there is a creator.
So, I will only give a brief statement: God has a plan to bring everything lost in Adam back thru Christ. He is reconcilling everything back to himself. There are many scriptures that show his plan. And it does not include destroying millions of people either. This is the true gospel of Christ. If you would like, you can email me at [email protected], and I will give you a link where you can read an article about this. Or, I can email it to you. You can then look up the bible verses and read them in their complete context and if you have questions, just email me anytime. I would be happy to help. I just choose not to answer this question in this forum again which will just open up another arguement. If you are still open to the idea of God and the Bible, I will happily help you. Peace be with you, Lilly
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peacefulpete
What's so bad about a spring day with birds singing, sun shining and holding hands of someone you love? Why must you feel it is all rubbish? Life for some is harder than others its true but considering we all got on the ride without paying its hard to complain.
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fairchild
I don't know, but life in its entirety makes no sense.
Yes, I see this the same way. But then, it's not because we don't understand life that it doesn't make sense. Many things we don't understand don't make sense. Perhaps we are not supposed to understand it.
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freetosee
Hi sinis,
I have been thinking and researching about this question lately. Because I want to be sure, not to place my WT-disappointment onto god. Even though the no. one topic when going form doortodoor was “why does god permit suffering?” I must now say the “universal sovereignty issue” is a very unsatisfying answer and an unrighteous solution the problem. I have tried just reading the bible by itself, and the creator god of the OT behaves like an evil merciless dictator. Eventually looking up respected commentaries like Adam Clark and other, I found out that they admit to the atrocious violence and have no answer. The reasoning is, that god just cannot do badly and since he is the giver of life he can dispose of it when and how he thinks proper .
I don’t claim to have all the answers, but try to be realistic and fear. I respect everyone’s believes and know how beautiful and convincing it can be. Yet, I disagree and realize it is mere wishful thinking. Although there is a vast difference between free Christianity and mind-controlling-cults!
You ask for other theories and biblical thoughts –well, as you know, the bible cannon was constructed by the Catholic Church (apostate to many), some of the so-called apocryphal writings found in Qumran and Nag Hammadi, Egypt are very revealing regarding the creator god Jehovah of the OT. Not that I support Gnosticism (it’s the same as all others –my opinion), but it presents a new (to me, its actually old) and thrilling perspective on the One who says ‘there is no other besides me’. I am sure you will enjoy these pages:
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/origin.html
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/hypostas.html
I believe in doing what my conscience tells me to do and if there is a god, a caring one that is, he will accept me as I am, since he made me. He (or She) will understand why I cant believe in Him/Her.
Take care
freetosee
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kid-A
"The chances of life just happening flies in the face of all mathmatical probability models."
I see. And what perchance is the mathematical probability that a god exists? Is it somehow more "probable" that a god (whatever that may be) actually exists out there?
What would the probability be that such a "god" would somehow decide to create carbon based life forms on this particular planet (out of a possibly infinite choice of OTHER planets in the universe?).
What would the "probabillity" be that a god somehow "came into being" of its own volition in the vast nothingness of space and time?
How precisely do you propose that this hypothetical "being" came into existence and what mathematical proof would you offer to back up your hypothesis?
How would that be calculated? Just out of curiosity, which models of mathematical probabilities are you referring to here and perhaps you could cite the published theorems you are talking about, I would be very interested in your research on this. So please, back up your statements with some data, numbers and formulas.
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serendipity
Hi free to see, welcome to the forum!
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CincinnatiKid
All of what you're saying takes faith, which is hard for some people includling myselft. Some people need concrete evidence, which become more and more shakey as you look into the bible's origins. And it's all about perception. I personally see chaos in everything and not something pointing toward a singularity (Godhead).
I read a book once called "Why God Won't Go Away", that theorized that religion in general is just a human invention that whose purpose is to minimize the agitation felt when you contemplate your own mortality. All animals have a fight or flight reflex but only humans can imagine future problems making those reflexes felt now. Think of walking in a bad neighborhood at night. Its religion that calms our mind and tricks it into beleiving that we're going to be ok. The unfortunate thing is that people kill and are killed for this notion.
How about Mathematics. I've always heard of some proabability to evolution, but the data to back that up is impossible to come up with. You know that 37% of all statistics are made up (That's funny bc I made up that statistic). Mathematics is the only arena where perfection exits. Have you ever seen a perfectly rectangular leaf? Or a rock that was perfectly round? The world lives in a chaos that is only organized by the laws of physics. So what would perfection on a "New Earth" look like? I'm sure it's different to everyone, so it can't be perfection to everyone.
There is a computer program called Avida (http://dllab.caltech.edu/avida/) that serves as a adaptive genetic system and has helped scientist understand evolution in much greater detail than they did using bacteria in petri dishes. I'd take a look at that info.
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A Paduan
Many things we don't understand don't make sense. Perhaps we are not supposed to understand it.
quality jw material there
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demeter
I have thought and read alot about this subject. When I was an active witness, Why does God permit suffering? was my favorite topic to talk about. I thought I had the answer. But there was still something unsatisfying about it.
I'm not a mathematician and I don't have any mathematical theories supporting my ponderings but here are a few of my "conclusions" and ideas so far:
Pardon the randomness:
The JWs use 2 accounts from the Bible to answer the question on suffering: 1) Adam and Eve sinned and we inherited it from them and thus needed a perfect ransomer to purchase our perfection and good standing with God back. 2) That we are tested to see if we can individually maintain faithfulness to Jehovah because of a dispute between him and Satan.
First of all the Job story don't make any sense taken literally. It doesn't even claim to have global implications. It was one imperfect man's struggle to understand why bad things were happening to him and why people were blaming him for his troubles.
If I had a parent or a mate who was continually testing me with hurtful things to prove to himself or one of his enemies that I would put up with it and never say an ill word and totally stay loyal--well, I say that this mate/parent is insecure and cruel, and had a severe mental/emotional problem. I would go as far away from this person as possible and seek protection from him. I think in the human world, people thrive and learn loyalty from being in a supportive, loving environment. If there is a God, I think that he is of this mindset too.
This brings us back to Adam and Eve. If God is all knowing and all powerful and the personification of LOVE, then how could this story be the total answer of how wickedness came into the world? Taken literally, he let the newest and most innocent of his creatures be manipulated by a vastly more powerful and intelligent spirit creature into putting herself into eternal destruction and alienation from God. What loving father could look on and let this take place? If your young daughter were alone in the forest and you knew that a terrible seducer was about to take away her innocence and murder her--would you sit back and see if she would resist him strenously first? Would you allow her to take poisonous fruit back to her husband to see if he would refuse before you intervened, out of some honor test? I know what I would do to protect the ones I love. I refuse to believe that an loving deity would allow this either.
I think that many parts of the Bible are the result of reactionary patriachial Israelite mentality that wanted to erase mother earth theology. I think believing those parts as concrete literal events are the basis for many ethnocentric, misogynic cultural attitudes in western society and a spring board for mental illness. It causes diseased attitudes because it causes a split between the natural desire for humans to be loving and accepting and this idea that God is inherently judgemental and punitive ...so his followers must be too.
I wonder, if you take the self discipline you learned as a witness or some other kind of fundalmentalist and seasoned it with love, what kind of spirituality would you come up with?What God would grow in your heart that you could believe in and trust? How would you feel if you thought God wanted you to love yourself and respect yourself and trust your own inclinations? If he was someone there for you rooting for you to grow and become the beautiful spirit you were meant to be? What if he thinks it's time for us all to grow in maturity and write our own personal Bibles of spirituality deep with in us? How would you treat others if you treated yourself well and knew what good treatment looked and felt like?
I think it is time we looked at ourselves and the archaic beliefs we have been burdened with and look at the fruitage it has brought to our own circumstances and the world around us:Would we be so careless about our relationships if we unburdened ourselves of self guilt and shame and we refused to cast guilt on others? If we looked around and saw the underlying unity that bonds us all together with God (LOVE)? Would we not treat everything with more respect and dignity, including the physical world around us?