Scriptures You Will Not Hear at the 30-04-06 Church Sermon

by scout575 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  scout575

  "But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained FIRE AND SULPHUR from heaven, and DESTROYED THEM ALL. Even THUS SHALL IT BE on the day when the SON OF MAN IS REVEALED." ( Luke 17: 29, 30 )

  "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ASHES condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ENSAMPLE unto those that after should live ungodly." ( 2 Peter 2:6 )

  "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, AND THE CITIES ABOUT THEM in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are SET FORTH FOR AN EXAMPLE, suffering the VENGEANCE OF ETERNAL FIRE." ( Jude 7 )

  The New Testament believes in, and condones the Old Testament story of God incinerating the men, women AND CHILDREN of Sodom and Gomorrha, and the surrounding cities ( Deuteronomy 29:23 ). The NT presents God's destruction of these people as a presage of what will befall the "ungodly" when "the son of man is revealed."
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  Slick Willie

  Scout,

  Reading your posts every week, "Scriptures you will not hear..." has awakened in me a desire to actually begin attending various church services in order to submit my own posts, 'Scriptures Heard at the [fill in the date] Church Service!"

  Imagine that, 30 years after leaving the Jehovah's Witness religion, you have motivated me to begin attending church!!

  I would suggest you do the same. Then we can write reviews based on our own unique perspectives and experiences!

  Somehow I think the churches I go to will lean more heavily on the saving grace of God ("God is love...") than on the more judgemental aspects that the JW's seem to relish. But to each his own!

  See you in church?

  God Bless You!
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  lovelylil

  Dear Scout,

  You should really read the scriptures in their full context to get the proper meaning. That verse in Luke was simply comparing the swiftness in which things occured in Lots day and Noahs day with the swiftness the coming of the Lord will be. If you read the whole chapter, it clearly brings this out. That the world will be busy going about their business, and the Lord will arrive upon them without them realizing until it is too late. So nothing in these verses shows that God took glea in destroying all these people and that he is going to do this again in the future. You are simply wrong. So please read it again and ALL the surrounding verses.

  In the bible Book of Ezekiel, you may be surprised to find out that God intends to bring all these past nations back from death in the resurrection. The warning example is that he will remove only unrepentant, willful sinners one day off the earth for good. In Ezekiel, God tells what he says to Sodom and Gemorrah when they come back to life. He tells them if they REMAIN in their sins and he takes their lives again, He will not bring them back again. But he is going to give them the ability to NOT remain in their sins. Because you see, God really is loving. Matthew 10:15 states that both these nations will be back for the judgement day. This scripture is echoing Ezekiel. So you see, their destruction is not final.

  I hate it when people try to use these examples to scare others into serving God. If you read your bible more carefully you will see that there were reasons that God took peoples lives in the OT but that all of them are coming back again in the resurection. That is why the bible says there is a resurrection of the righteous(which simply means God fearing) and unrighteous (not God fearing).

  The bible fortells the bringing back of ancient Sodom, Gommorah, Egypt, Tire, Sidon, all the nations and people God killed. And it explains why their lives were taken. And what lessons were to be learned. But many skip this and pull out only the verses they think will scare people into submission to thier religious group. Any way, if anyone would like to know the real truth of God and his plans for all, believers and unbelievers, please pm me. I will not get into all the scriptures now and a debate on this. I want only those who are truly interested in hearing this message which is the true Gospel of the kingdom to contact me. Thanks.
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  scout575

  Lovelylil: I agree with you that the Luke 17 account is indicating the sudden and unexpected nature of Jesus' return, but it is ALSO indicating that, just as the people of Sodom were destroyed by God, so too the 'ungodly' living at the time of Jesus' return would be destroyed by God. What is Jesus' sudden and unexpected return supposed to accomplish in connection with the 'ungodly' who will be 'caught off guard' by his return? The same thing as happened ( if you believe the Bible ) to the people of Sodom: Their destruction.

  Notice that at Luke 17:30, Jesus refers to, "when the son of man is REVEALED." This is the same word used at 2 Thessalonians 1:7, where the writer refers to, "when the Lord Jesus shall be REVEALED." What does this revelation of Jesus accomplish in connection with the 'ungodly'? Verses 8 and 9 say, "In flaming fire taking VENGEANCE on them that KNOW NOT GOD, and that OBEY NOT the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be PUNISHED with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power." The NT is very clear about this: All those who aren't Christians will be destroyed by Jesus when he returns. It is this ugly threat that I don't like. Happily, I don't believe a word of it.

  SLICK WILLIE: Forgive me if I'm wrong but I got the impression from your reply that you think I'm still a JW. You'll notice from the last sentence of the above reply to Lovelylil, that that isn't the case. My purpose in making these weekly posts is simply to encourage JW 'lurkers' who may considering joining a fundamentalist church, to think very carefully about it beforehand.

  By the way, I would welcome a weekly post from you listing the 'nice' bits of the NT. Believe it or not, although I am now an atheist I still enjoy reading certain parts of the Bible. I particularly like the KJV because of its charismatic turn of phrase. Look forward to your posts.
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  lovelylil

  scout 575,

  Thank you for your reply. I see you mentioned you are an atheist so I will keep this short becasue you seemed to have your mind made up anyway.

  Most people loose trust in God because of the false gospel that many Christians today preach. Instead of being messengers of Reconciliation like Paul said he was, they become messengers of Doom. Many words in the Bible need to be looked at in their context and also for their proper meaning. For instance everlasting fire, just denotes being destroyed permamently not being in a literal fiery hell. Unfortunately, many Christians take these terms literally when they are not. The term Judgement in the bible is another one. This term does not just mean "final judgement" but denotes a trial before hand. You cannot be put on trial without knowing what your sins are. Many today have not learned of Christ at all. Most of the world is not Christian. And those who have of him, because of taking terms too literal in the Bible have received a false gospel. I am currently working on an article about this subject. If the Bible says "God loved the World, thus sent his only begotton-son", many find this hard to reconcile with an Evil God that would destroy most of mankind. And with good reason.

  For those of us knowing the true gospel, we know this is not the case. We realize many portray our God who is so loving and kind as being a vengeful ready to destroy God, which he is not. He is nothing like the Churches portray him. His plan includes saving all who will submit to his Sons reign. But many will not do this until Christ comes himself and opens their blind eyes. Only after that, do the ones not knowing him (this knowing bible scholars agree means those who recognize Christ but STILL refuse to submit) will be removed from the earth.

  God has a plan that most have never heard of. Right now, he is only gathering what the bible calls the true Church of God or the Bride to himself. This time is known as the gospel age. The world is not going to be converted at this time. After the church is gathered to Christ, and he comes in his glory, then the nations eyes will be opened to the truth. Only after this time, will they go on trial for their life. If they are repentent, they are not destroyed.

  Whatever you believe right now, if you are not part of the Bride, it does not really matter. I just hope you have peace in your life.
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  Tea4Two

  Lilly? How can we know if we are part of the bride?
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  lovelylil

  Hi Tea for Two,

  Here is some info. that may help. If you have other questions please email me, o.k.

  First off - the WT is wrong when they limit the bride or heavenly class as being 144,000. The scriptures show that the great crowd is heavenly. They will be the rulers upon thrones and servants of God in his temple. (heavenly that is). I can email you scriptures later on.

  2nd - The purpose of the gospel age is calling these Christians (the bride or church) out of the world, figuratively and baptizing them in the name of Christ. The Bible says taking "a people out for his name" that name is Christains. The calling to be Christians of the Church happens when we hear the true gospel of Christ. Upon recieving the gospel and believing it, then being moved to symbolize it in baptism, we are accepting the invitation to be sons of God.(the Jews were invited first, the gentiles second) Once you accept this invitation, then you will recieve confromation later on if you are accepted as a "son of God" . Paul says we are given a deposit of the Holy Spirit, which is the evidence that you have been excepted into this new covenant. In other words - you are a spirit child of God - Anointed.

  3rd - Not all claiming to be Christians and are baptized are in this group and have the Holy Spirit. ONLY those with the Holy Spirit indwelling will be given the change to a new nature. It is evident not all claiming to be Christians has it by their works. you must have works showing you have it See Galatians 5 - fruit of the spirit and also Paul explains how you KNOW you are one who is spirit begotten in Romans Chapter 8. Now this does not mean you will be perfect, you will still sin, but slowly you will become more Christ Like each day.

  4th - It would make sense that not all baptized christians are spirit begotten because many are baptized for the wrong reason, whether it be as infants, due to family pressure, or fear of destruction, this last one being the one Religions use today to bring people into their org. Usually those who are truly spirit begotten and are showing evidence as Paul brings out, are in a relationship with Christ because they WANT to be. Not for a reward or fear but because THEY heard the message about him and truly LOVE him! They consider everything else in life a LOSS for the gain of being one day with their Master, Christ Jesus.

  Lastly, we are NEVER to judge any that feel they are spirit begotten because the Lord only knows who belong to him. Can some claim this and be wrong, yes. But it is not up to us to decide. Any who claim this hope, we should accept at their word.

  The parable of the wheat and weeds shows that both groups - (true Christians who are spirit-anointed and those who are not) will grow alongside each other until the harvest. We are not in the Harvest yet as this work is done by Angels. In the Harvest, Christ with the Angels will seperate them and then the true sons of God will be revealed. Next, Christ will turn his attention to the rest of the Nations of unbelievers. Hope this helps. You can email me anytime.
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  Tea4Two

  Thank You Lilly, I will e mail soon.
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  scout575

  Lovelylil: Thanks very much for your comprehensive replies. I wish you peace in your life too.
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  freetosee

  Hi Scout,

  I think you’re right. When I left to JW’s I started reading the bible from back to front, some passages using different translations (not NWT), because I wanted to be sure not to fall snare to the devil. I looked up verse-by-verse commentaries and conversed with ‘real’ Christians. And I just can’t honestly deny the destructive massage of a violent merciless God. Some of the passages in Numbers, Samuel and other prophets are disgusting. The shedding of innocent blood is rampant and undeniable when claiming to consider the context. No, the bible does not only contain brutality, one can find beautiful psalms, songs and sermons. The good advice given bubbles forth timeless wisdom. But as you mentioned, some focus on the 'nice' bits of the NT, and try to explain away the OT God who refers to himself as a creator of evil and who dwells in darkness.

  I am not an atheist nor am I a worshiper of god. I believe in evolution, being fully aware that it does not answer all questions; neither does it claim to do so. To me human behavior is the greatest proof of evolution. Reading the bible ‘God’s Word’, cannoned by the Catholic Church, in full context is what made me finally loose faith in a loving heavenly Father.

  Actually, it all boils down to ‘choice’. Because we are free to choose to put faith in god, free to choose the religion which we (only) believe to be the right one and choose to live by it or not. Faith can, and does, bring people from all over the globe happiness and pace of mind. Christians are surly not the only ones who believe to experience a warm and loving personal relationship with their creator.

  I have read much about God’s purpose and plan for mankind and it surpasses the WT outlook and reasoning by far. It gives bible reading a completely new meaning and pleasure. But still it denies the crystal clear context of the scriptures. Which I believe originates with men.