C. Wah on Child Custody: Pretty Facinating Stuff

by Oroborus21 10 Replies latest jw friends

  • Oroborus21
    Oroborus21

    Howdy,

    First want to give a shout-out to our newbie member JW_Researcher. thanks for the article. keep up the tremendous work!

    Finished reviewing Carolyn R. Wah's (Associate General Counsel for the WTBTS) paper in the Review of Religious Research, (2001, Vol. 42:4, Pges 372-286) published by the Religious Research Association.

    (BTW I emailed the executive director an asked whether Ms. Wah or the WTS were enrolled members or not. Members may submit papers for free and others pay $15. Membership is only $30 and Ms. Wah has had at least two papers published in the journal. I don't think it would be a huge deal if either she or the WT were enrolled as members, even though the "about" section states that the RRA is an "interfaith association" but then again I don't think the UN-DPI thing was a major deal either. Still it will be interesting to see if she is or if the WT is a member.)

    Anyway, if you have ever been remotely interested in the topic, this paper of Ms. Wah's was completely fascinating and very educational.

    what it is, is a summary of a study conducted by the Society for the three year period of 1996-8 and the Society's/Ms. Wah's conclusions. She uses the pronoun "our" so I assume she speaks on behalf of the Society.

    Quick background:

    As described by Wah, as announced in the KMs, when a child-custody case arose the body of elders were to write the Society to request the package. the Society first sent out a "Child Custody Questionnaire" which contained among other things questions about the persons involved and whether the body recommended that the "Watchtower provide legal assistance." If a questionnaire was received then a file was opened and maintained as either active or closed. It was closed if there was some disposition of the matter.

    Some things I learned:

    • (confirmation of what I suspected) which is that the "Preparing for Child Custody" brochure as available you know where, and as "reviewed" by Randy W. and Duane Magnani is the 1980s out of date version. Ms. Wah refers to the new version entitled "Preparing for a Child Custody Case Involving Religious Issue" (1997). It is my hunch that the brochure and package of case materials has been updated by WT legal since then. Does anyone happen to have this newer version or know where it may be available?
    • (confirmation of what seemed evident) which is that the procedure changed in the mid-1980s from simply giving the info to Witnesses who requested it to going through the local Elders request and also that the Society began providing direct legal assistance (counsel) for representation of Witnesses at trial and in appeal for those "recommended" by their local Elders to receive such help
    • the study conducted by the WTS concluded that although many of the cases initially raised a religious issue, such issue was only dispositive in 6% of the cases.

    Some interesting stats from the study:

    • For the 3 years, 684 questionnaires were returned (since Wah doesn't mention how many actual requests were received, evidently the legal dept's records only contained the records of returned questionnaires/files created) of these 684 cases only 456 were known outcomes (closed files) and this served as the basis for the statistics. Interestingly, Wah says that they (the Society) believes this number to be more representative of the true population of such cases and not a sample (i.e. they believe this number represents closely the actual number of such cases). If we agree with that assumption and spread it out over the three years, it means that there were about 225 cases a year.
    • the JW (getting assistance) was female 60-64% and 36-40% the JW was male for the three years
    • 77% of the cases involved a non-JW spouse
    • In 49% of the cases, the JW was a baptized JW prior to marriage (makes one wonder whether these findings influenced the ramp ups in marrying "only in the Lord" message. Also this finding led Wah to conclude that religion was probably not a factor in the marital discord which seems to me to be too much of an assumption.) (Also the majority of marriages broke of in less than 10 years)
    • The "nature of the complaints" of the non-JW broke down like this: Holidays an Issue (31%), General lifestyle (26%), Blood an Issue (23%), Meeting Attendance (20%). [I am shocked that Blood was not more of an issue and in my opinion both it, and also the issues pertaining to safety (aka sex abuser concerns) should or could be more of a focus of opposing counsel).
    • Religion was a factor in the child-custody dispute only 26% of the time
    • And again in only 26 actual cases representing only 6% of cases were restrictions imposed by the court upon the JW parent.
    • Of these restrictions they included: taking the child in service, taking the child to the KH, conducting a Bible study with the child, and giving the medical decision authority to the Non-JW parent
    • What was not indicated in the paper was the breakdown of comparison of custody disposition, in other words, how many of the cases resulted in the Non-Jw being giving physical and/or joint-legal custody

    Stats that were REALLY interesting:

    • In a whopping 68% of the cases the local Elders were completely unaware of "prior existing difficulties" of the person before they became a JW, including illicit drug usage. [Frankly, I am not too shocked at this finding because it seems that it is rare that the Elders get to know new studies well or are interested in anything about their past, but only their commitment to and acceptance of "the truth" (aka program)
    • In only 27% percent of the cases did the Elders "recommend" that the Society render legal aid to the JW. [let's all speculate as to the reason for this. was the person not "good enough"? Did the Elders not want to waste the Society's money or the WT lawyer's time? I mean this was unbelievable to me to have the Society willing to provide free legal help to the flock and for the Elders in only about a quarter of the time to recommend that they actually give such aid to the faithful. Astonishing.]

    Overall, the paper is really interesting. Obviously, there is nothing particularly damaging to the Society and actually the findings of the study support that religion is not particularly a major issue in child-custody cases.

    BUT, should it be? Are the courts missing something? In the introduction section, Ms. Wah set out what is the "strict standard" in many states, namely that a court will consider religion only in the case where it is evident that it would present a clear harm to the child ("clear and affirmative evidence of imminent harm"). However, that is NOT the standard in all states. In many there is no clear standard and in others, a lesser standard is used.

    Well I am still working on my "Guide for Counsel" so hopefully I might have something further to contribute to this discussion in the future.

    In the meantime, if you are interested in this, you should get a copy and read the paper for yourself.

    -Eduardo

    Overall the study is

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Eduardo,

    THANK YOU!!!

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

    P.S. How are you doing?

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    Eduardo,

    If you find noteworthy Wah's articles regarding JWs and child custody then you should find fascinating Donald Ridley's articles regarding issues surrounding the WTS' blood doctrine. The guy has no shame.

    Ridley is the WTS attorney working point when it comes to the blood issue. He has written rather prolifically on the subject, considering the WTS' conservative nature. I believe he has written things he probably regrets, or will regret by the time I'm done with it.

    If you provide me your email in a PM I'll send some of articles, or all of them I know of as time allows.

    Marvin Shilmer

  • sf
    sf

    I'm just going to post a few items in google regarding WAH that lurkers and seekers may find of use and/ or of interest:

    http://www1.divorcenet.com/famlaw/famlaw02-99.html

    [ Carolyn R. Wah, The Role of the Mental Health Care Professional in Evaluating a Minor’s Capacity to Select Religious Affiliation (pages 229-246): In situations where the capacity of a minor to choose a religious affiliation is in question, such as in the divorce/custody context, a mental health care professional can objectively evaluation the minor’s decision-making capacity and determine whether the minor is at risk of substantial present or imminent harm as a result of exposure to his or her chosen faith. ]

    _____

    [PDF] AFCC Newsletter Fa2004 PAGES

    File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
    Carolyn Wah, JD. Patterson, NY. Hon. R. James Williams. Halifax, NS ... ing child abuse, domestic violence, estrangement and/or alienation. ...
    www.afccnet.org/pdfs/AFCCFa2004.pdf - Similar pages

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    Superior Court Law Library - Child Visitation Issues

    Haralambie, Ann M. Handling Child Custody, Abuse and Adoption Cases. ... Wah, Carolyn R. "Religion as a Factor In Child Custody and Visitation Rights Cases: ...
    www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/lawlibrary/ Documents/Html/Bibliographies/Visitation2.asp - 61k - Cached - Similar pages

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    [RTF] Preliminary List of Sessions and Speakers

    File Format: Rich Text Format - View as HTML
    Carolyn Wah, Attorney-at-Law, New York. Discussant: Nathalie Desrosiers, Law Commission of ... Child Abuse and Its After-Effects in Contemporary Russia ...
    www.ialmh.org/Toronto99/Final%20Program%20rtf.rtf - Similar pages

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    Meyer v. Meyer (2000-420); 173 Vt. 195; 789 A.2d 921 [Filed 09-Nov ...

    ... J. Jack Long of Clark Long & Werner, Burlington, and Carolyn R. Wah, ... Given this state of the record, the family court did not abuse its discretion ...
    dol.state.vt.us/gopher_root3/supct/173/2000-420.op - 17k - Cached - Similar pages

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    [PDF] EVALUATING “NONTRADITIONAL” RELIGIOUS PRACTICE IN CHILD CUSTODY CASES

    File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
    Carolyn R. Wah. This article suggests a model for objectively evaluating ... religions that practice ritual sex abuse, incest, and child prostitution, ...
    www.blackwell-synergy.com/ doi/pdf/10.1111/j.174-1617.1997.tb00472.x - Similar pages

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    [PDF] PARENT-CHILD SPEECH AND CHILD CUSTODY SPEECH RESTRICTIONS

    File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
    Lange, 502 NW2d at 145 n.2; see also Carolyn R. Wah, The Custodial Parent’s Right to ... which the court said that “mere words” may constitute child abuse ...
    www.law.ucla.edu/volokh/custody.pdf - Similar pages

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    AJS [American Judicature Society] - Subject Index

    ... expert testimony in child custody cases, Wah, Carolyn R., 86:152-161 (Nov. ... Adjudicating allegations of child sexual abuse when custody is in dispute ...
    www.ajs.org/ajs/publications/ajs_jud-subject-index.asp - 273k - Cached - Similar pages

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    [PDF] Parent-Child Speech and Child Custody Speech Restrictions

    File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
    1993); Carolyn R. Wah, The Custodial ... of intervention: Laws restricting child abuse, child labor, and the like do indeed in- ...
    repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent. cgi?article=1019&context=uclalaw - Similar pages

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    Plus, a very interesting and intriging thread on USENET:

    Just walk away
    ... Carolyn Wah is the most vicious legal shark I have ever had the misfortune to meet.
    She could have gotten Scott Peterson off. Ravyn, Lady Heresy
    jehovahs-witnesses - Dec 14 2004, 6:09 am by Ravyn, Lady Heresy - 25 messages - 6 authors

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    sKally

  • Oroborus21
    Oroborus21

    Howdy,

    Just a follow-up, the Executive Director of Religious Research Association, confirmed via email with me that Carolyn is a member. He also said that the RRA doesn't have insititutional or corporate memberships so the WTBTS could not be as an entity.

    Again, i don't think it is a really big deal but as some of you know in the past (?) the Society used to give flak to friends who wanted to join the YMCA, etc. so I am not sure how it would feel, officially, about its associate general counsel being a dues-paying member of an organization that states:

    The Religious Research Association is...

    Academic and religious professionals working at the intersection of research and practical religious activities.

    An interfaith and international association with over 600 members including college, university, and seminary faculty; religious leaders; organizational consultants; laypersons; and other professionals interested in the intersection of religion and society.

    by the way, I want to join too so hopefully I can. it is only $30 bucks to join and you get the quarterly journal included which seems worth it.

    Regarding Wah, I think she is just a sincere JW. I am not sure the "shark" label is appropriate. Someone posted on another thread some comments regarding her so perhaps he seems to know something more about her personally.

    -Eduardo

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    Hello, Eduardo

    You write:

    "Regarding Wah, I think she is just a sincere JW. I am not sure the "shark" label is appropriate. Someone posted on another thread some comments regarding her so perhaps he seems to know something more about her personally."

    Let's be clear, Wah is a "hired hand" of the WTS. When and what she writes as an associate general counsel for the WTS is written in her role as associate counsel to the WTS. What she writes betrays double standards for WTS insiders (such as herself) compared to WTS admonitions to the masses of its followers.

    For example, the WTS instructs its masses that reading apostate literature amounts to inviting an enemy of true worship into ones home to site and related his or her apostate ideas. Accordingly the WTS admonishes its masses to destroy apostate literature and not read it at all. Wah, on the other hand, writes that she has read articles and books written by well known apostates (from the WTS prospective). These includes articles and/or books by James Penton, Gerald Bergman, and Gary Bottling. So, apparently, when it comes to Wah's home at Bethel, the WTS has no problem inviting apostates in to have their influence. But, when it comes to the masses influenced by the WTS, the WTS instructs not to invite the same apostates into their homes. It seems whatever influence the WTS gets from these so-called apostates it wants to keep it for itself and away from it masses.

    In her capacity of general counsel to the WTS Wah has undertaken to continue the myth that the WTS' publications represent the views of the population of Jehovah's Witnesses. This despite the fact that, as Wah no doubt thoroughly understands and is aware, nothing whatsoever promoted by the WTS emanates from the masses of Jehovah's Witnesses as though the WTS' publications could possibly mirror that in representation.

    By the way, in addition to Wah's connection with Review and Religious Research, she is an advertised author in The Journal of Church and State within the same marketing brochure that also advertises the JCS as an interfaith effort.

    Marvin Shilmer

    See: Wah, An Introduction to Research and Analysis of Jehovah's Witnesses: A View from the Watchtower, Review of Religious Research, 2001, Volume 43: 2, pages 161-174

  • Oroborus21
    Oroborus21

    Howdy Marvin,

    check your pm...

    For example, the WTS instructs its masses that reading apostate literature amounts to inviting an enemy of true worship into ones home to site and related his or her apostate ideas. Accordingly the WTS admonishes its masses to destroy apostate literature and not read it at all. Wah, on the other hand, writes that she has read articles and books written by well known apostates (from the WTS prospective). These includes articles and/or books by James Penton, Gerald Bergman, and Gary Bottling. So, apparently, when it comes to Wah's home at Bethel, the WTS has no problem inviting apostates in to have their influence. But, when it comes to the masses influenced by the WTS, the WTS instructs not to invite the same apostates into their homes. It seems whatever influence the WTS gets from these so-called apostates it wants to keep it for itself and away from it masses.

    I agree with you regarding the existence of this double standard. It is something that always personally troubled me. However, I would venture to say that most intelligent JWs conclude that some persons at Bethel (in the Writing Dept or Research Dept, etc.) do read such "apostate" or "wordly" literature (in some sense not really much different though an argument could be made that apostate material is worse) since such worldly literature, expressions, writers, etc. are routinely quoted in the WT literature.

    (When I once queried and Elder about this, he said that he understood that such persons whose assignment exposed them to such material were "rotated" periodically so as not to become worn down or overwhelmed by such materials. I thought that explanation pretty proposterous myself as it treats such information like "toxic waste" or exposure to toxins, and completely ignores the actual nature of information.)

    Anyway, the bottom line is that most JWs would consider it Ms. Wah's job or assignment to be familiar with such "apostate" or opposer-information, having to defend against it in court and in representation of the Watchtower and that excuses her from the general counsel to the rank and file faithful to avoid such material.

    By the way, it is only a general counsel to avoid such material. Jehovah's Witnesses as a group (though individuals may do so for say minors, (e.g. Richie Rich) don't attempt to actually prevent other Witnesses from reading or researching such material. And I don't know of a single case, nor have I heard of, cases where Witnesses were actually DF'd for reading apostate literature.

    In her capacity of general counsel to the WTS Wah has undertaken to continue the myth that the WTS' publications represent the views of the population of Jehovah's Witnesses. This despite the fact that, as Wah no doubt thoroughly understands and is aware, nothing whatsoever promoted by the WTS emanates from the masses of Jehovah's Witnesses as though the WTS' publications could possibly mirror that in representation.

    I agree, but the Unity myth is a popular one, so Ms. Wah is only reflective of this widespread and official story. I believe one of the keys to future change of the Organization is the erosion of this myth and the promotion of the understanding within the faithful that there is actually a plurality of belief, practice and acceptance of the theology within the body of the Worldwide Association.

    I agree that this message could and should be communicated to outsiders, but they may not be surprised by it.

    It is the sleeper that realizes that it is both ok to doubt and that they are not alone that awakens.

    -Eduardo

  • sf
    sf

    Journal of Church and State Summer 2001

    Carolyn R. Wah. Just War, Jihad, and Terrorism: A Comparison of Western and Islamic ... According to Americans United for Separation of Church and State, ...
    www3.baylor.edu/Church_State/journ2002Winter.html - 153k - Cached - Similar pages

    Jehovah's Witnesses and the responsibility of religious freedom: the European experience.
    by Wah, Carolyn R.

    ___

    Restrictions on religious training and exposure in child custody and visitation orders: do they protect or harm the child?
    by Wah, Carolyn R.

    ___

    Bibliography Part 2: Articles in Edited Volumes and Scientific ...

    Journal of Church and State 37(4)919-921. Idem (1996a) ... Journal of Contemporary Religion, 12(2)133-156. Wah, Carolyn R. (1992) ...
    www.watchtowerinformationservice.org/biblio2.htm - 41k - Cached - Similar pages

    [ click on CACHED version ]

    Wah, Carolyn R. (1992)Religion as a Factor in Child Custody and Visitation Cases- Principles and Pitfalls.American Journal of Family Law 6:159-166

    Idem (1994a)Religion in Child Custody and Visitation Cases: Presenting the Advantage of Religious Participation.Family Law Quarterly 28(2)269-287

    Idem (1994b)Mental Health and Minority ReligionsInternational Journal of Law and Psychiatry 17(3)331-345

    Idem (1997)Religion as a factor in best interest hearings.Wiley Family Law Update, pp 111-138. New York, John Wiley & Sons

    Idem (1998)The Role of the Mental Health Care Professional in Evaluating a Minor's Capacity to Select Religious Affiliation.American Journal of Family Law 12(4)229-246

    Idem (1999)Religion and Minors: Evaluating Potential Benefits and Potential Harms.American Journal of Family Law 13:115-132

    Idem (2001a)
    Jehovah's Witnesses and the Responsibility of Religious Freedom: The European ExperienceJournal of Church and State, 43(3)579-601

    Idem (2001b)An Introduction to Research and Analysis of Jehovah's witnesses: A View From the Watchtower.Review of Religious Research 43(2)161-174

    Idem (2001c)Jehovah's Witnesses and Child Custody Cases.Review of Religious Research 42( 4)372-386.

  • JT
    JT

    "By the way, it is only a general counsel to avoid such material"

    You must be kidding, You must NOT be an elder- for you would know that this material is discussed at all KM School and such material is ground for a judical case/ DFing

    so please man--------- don't attempt to paint that the wt presents jw reading apostate material as general counsel- like should you wear a suit or sports jacket when giving a talk

    get real- if an elder see a jw PC Cookies pointing to sites deemed as "Apostates" that jw i S#%$# outta luck

    if the elders wants to he can take it as far as he likes right to a judical meeting- the grown jw will be given the chance to aplogize and confess they are weak, if the jw takes the position that i am a grown man who pays my own light bill each month instead of whimpping out

    he will face the full wrath of a judical and the funny part is if he appeals to another committee and on to Bethel HE WILL LOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    so at least be honest in terms of how serious the wt takes any jw who interacts with DF DA or those classified as apostates-

    this is why guys like you are at such a disadvantage in terms of knowing Organizational procedures, guidlines and Policy on issues

    IF you are not AN Elder then you are merely speaking off the Cuff on this issue- sorry to yank your chain man

  • metatron
    metatron

    You'll never prove it court, but I recall accounts of Ms. Wah suborning perjury from 'loyal' Witnesses to protect the Watchtower, Inc.

    Even without the rumors, etc, you lurkers should grasp the essential "worldliness" of all this! The idea that the organization

    is "no part of the world" is a rank falsehood! You can't be deeply involved in legal machinations and battles, using 'worldly'

    courts and printing legal briefs without being part of the world in a simple, practical sense. If it looks like a duck

    and quacks like a duck..........

    metatron

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