Dozy - More Clarification on the UN Issue?

by slimboyfat 26 Replies latest jw friends

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    I know you feel a bit bombarded with questions, but please if you could clear up just a couple of things for me that would be appreciated since I found your posts on the issue especially interesting.

    I must admit this whole "UN Scandal" bores me to tears and I have avoided most posts on the issue right from the start. However, from the little I have read I think there are some holes in the defense of the society you have provided on this issue.

    I share the attitude of many who have the general reaction to the whole thing - "so what?" After all, the society have to work with governments and cooperate with various agencies. Isn't this just a case of the Witnesses cooperating with the 'powers that be' where it is prudent to do so? The fact that they also think the UN is the scarlet-coloured beast is neither here nor there. They also think that Britian and America constitute one of the beasts of Daniel, yet cooperate with them also. That is my general attitude, and I think apostates have made way too much of this issue without thinking through the arguments and implications clearly. That having been said, I want to raise three points with you:

    1. You provided magazine articles from the WT in the 1990s that were generally down on the UN as if this confounded the apostate claim that the Witnesses skewed their literature to support the UN during the period. But I think this shows you have missed a key point in the debate. The claim was specifically that the society presented pro-UN articles in Awake! magazine to the UN as evidence of their support, while at the same time maintaining their traditional stance on the UN in the WT magazine. So your citations from the WT do not refute this claim that the society were talking out of both sides of their mouth during the 1990s - they rather support it. This is an especially damaging allegation, if true, since it shows that the society takes us all for fools. The UN are fools for believing the pro-UN articles they were presented from the Awake! while they were not exposed to the rhetoric from the WT aimed at a Witness audience. And the ordinary Witnesses are taken for fools because they were not told the real reason the pro-UN articles in the Awake! magazine.

    2. How important is a "non-governmental oganisation" status anyway? It doesn't exactly mean that they became a part of the UN in any meaningful way, does it? Well I don't know the answer to that, and I suppose you could argue the minutiae until your hair goes grey. But what is the society's own judgement on the matter? Well, have you read the WT study article from the early 1990s in which the Catholic church was lambasted for their association with the UN? What is especially interesting is that they quote a specific source to confirm the church's "support" for the UN. The quote does not specify in what capacity they worked with the UN, but some apostates on this board located that source and - you guessed it - the nature of their "support" was that they were affiliated as an NGO. So whatever way you cut it, the society are at least guilty of doing the very same thing that they specifically criticised the Catholic church for - the very definition of hypocrisy.

    3. You say that for most Witnesses you know the "UN scandal" is a non-issue. This surprises me. Do Witnesses generally discuss such things in your congregation? I just can't imagine Witnesses in my congregation having an open and frank discussion on this issue - or any controversial issue for that matter. When I expressed some very minor doubts to a sister some years ago, I was reported to the elders immediately and grilled in "the room" until they gave up trying to get me to talk. I have kept stum ever since. Is it because you are an elder you can get away with discussing such things with other Witnesses, or do you only discuss it with trusted friends? I am really curious to know how your experience of how much Witnesses talk openly about such things can be so different from mine.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    Isn't this just a case of the Witnesses cooperating with the 'powers that be' where it is prudent to do so?

    No. It isn't just a case of cooperating with the powers that be. It is a case of voluntarily applying for a membership to a secular organization that has objectives contrary to the Bible (per Governing Body dogma) and which is under judgement by God, receiving credentials of membership, and using those credentials for 10 years.

    Organized to Do Jehovah's Will (2005) p. 155, par. 2 Concerning those who renounced their Christian faith in his day, the apostle John wrote: “They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us.” (1 John 2:19) For example, a person might renounce his place in the Christian congregation by his actions, such as by becoming part of a secular organization that has objectives contrary to the Bible and, hence, is under judgment by Jehovah God. (Isa. 2:4; Rev. 19:17-21) If a person who is a Christian chooses to join those who are disapproved by God, a brief announcement is made to the congregation, stating: “[Name of person] is no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.” Such a person is treated in the same way as a disfellowshipped person. The presiding overseer should approve this announcement.

    So, it is simple. There was outright hypocrisy if the UN/DPI a secular organization that is disapproved by God. The reasons for doing so become moot, they have no bearing whatsoever on the gross wrongdoing committed per Governing Body dogma. Note: both Scriptures used in reference to secular organizations refer to political affiliations.

    For me, the question is simple. Does the Bible indicate that it is okay to measure an organization with a different set of weights than that used to measure an individual? I decided, no, it would be unjust. If I ever change my mind on that, I will reject the Bible and the God it claims to represent at the same time, because such a God would be unworthy of worship. If I—a mere human—can aspire to an ideal that is unattainable for my God, why would I worship that which is lower than I wish to become?

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • Honesty
    Honesty

    Personally, I don't for a second believe the United Nations is the "scarlet colored wild beast" of Revelation.

    I do believe the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is a thieving, lying, demonic and hypocritical organization that used the United Nations to further expand its blasphemous publishing and real-estate empire under the guise of a benevolent and charitable religion.

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    .....yawn......more troll baiting...............

    >>>>>> crickets chirping <<<<<<<<<

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Kid-A

    You are wrong. My questions are genuine and dozy is genuine: read our histories.

  • dozy
    dozy

    Hi Slim. I’m with you on the UN issue - I basically regard it as a bit inconsequential. I don’t know all the facts and make no claim to be an official apologist on this matter. Some ex-witnesses feel that it is a huge issue (some even used it as their sole reason for leaving , which seems a bit harsh) and others don’t seem to care too much. I'm bored with it as well , but in answer to the questions:

    1... Do we have any evidence that the WTS submitted Awake magazines in support of the application? If so , do we know which articles? Assuming the answer is no , then it is impossible to determine whether or not the WTS acted dishonourably. Is it possible that the WTS also submitted Watchtower articles , or that a representative explained the JW theological position when making the application. Who knows? It is all speculation. As you yourself mentioned with reference to “theocratic warfare” , we all “change our hats” depending on the audience. Tony Blair’s speech to the Trade Unions is completely different to his speech to the CBI (employers organisation) or to the Labour Party conference. Nobody would accuse him of being dishonest - it is something we do each day without thinking.

    2...I don’t know the reference and it may have been ill-chosen , but I think most people would acknowledge that the relationships that large churches like the Catholics have is far closer than JWs. I have worked in East Africa and both Catholic and Protestant churches are far more closely involved with the UN. Some people are even on the payroll of both organisations. Regarding the reference , it would seem that the NGO registration was regarded as so un-important that not many even knew about it in Bethel , so did the writers definitely know?

    3... The UN business is well known in my cong as we have a very vocal population of “born again” individuals who want to discuss the UN business every time someone calls at their door , so the brothers are well informed on the situation and the WTS defence. We even had a 20 minute "local needs" on the subject. I don’t know how well known it is amongst the JW population at large.

    I think the UN NGO business has to be put in the context of an effort in the early 90’s for the society to become more engaged with putting its case across in connection with the opening up of the former communist lands. The WTS tried to replicate what is sees as the success it has with the HLC / medical liason groups with the UN and media organisations. Unfortunately , if you "sup with the Devil , then you need a big spoon." The WTS has learned that this hands-on / engagement approach doesn't work as the recent scrapping of the public information committees in the UK illustrates. dozy (of the "I'm not a troll" class)

  • carla
    carla

    I think it's a great thread. I just wonder if any jw has the courage to answer truthfully.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    kid-A,

    True, but responding benefits lurkers. In my opinion, leaving such stupid post unanswered, when the post contradicts what the WTS itself admits to, could give lurkers the impression that the ill-informed person who wrote the post might have the correct understanding of the relationship between the WTS and the United Nations Department of Public Information (UN/DPI).

    slimboyfat,

    You ask whether the WTS became part of the UN in any meaningful way. They didn't even marginally become part of the UN. No one in a position to know the facts should ever claim that they becamse part of the UN, a non-governmental organization is forbidden—by its non-governmental nature—from ever becoming part of the UN.

    The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. did voluntarily become an Associate member of the UN/DPI, however. So, all of Dozy's posts about the ECOSOC resolution become moot (the DPI is a department under the UN General-Secretary, in an entirely different branch from the UN/ECOSOC), and almost every one of slimboyfat's points falls flat on their collective face.

    The only questions before us, per the Organized to Do Jehovah's Will book (p. 155 par. 2) and the Organized to Accomplish Our Ministry book (p. 151, par 1), are:

    1. According to JW dogma, is the UN/DPI a secular organization with objectives contrary to the Bible and which God disapproves. (Isaiah 2:4; Revelation 19:17-21)
    2. Did the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. choose to join the UN/DPI and maintain an Associate membership with that organization for almost 10 years?

    I don't know if you have ever been an elder, slimboyfat, but if I had been committing physical adultery for nearly 10 years, do you think it would be forgiven if I simply agreed to stop doing it? I doubt it. Just based on the length of time the relationship lasted I would be disfellowshipped. If I did nothing more than stop the relationship I could never expect to get reinstated. I would have to demonstrate a desire to right the wrong to the extent possible, making amends to those injured by my actions.

    Unless I allow for two sets of weights, I have to face the reality that according to Governing Body standards this was spiritual adultery and according to Governing Body standards there is no evidence of genuine remorse. Are you suggesting that the organization binds up heavy loads on the disciples that they are not willing to budge with their finger? If so, I am in agreement with you. What did Jesus call such ones?

    Oh yeah. "Hypocrites."

    This isn't as complicated as the WTS and WT apologists try to make it out to be, folks. It is crystal clear and very simple. The Watchtower Society voluntarily joined as Associates those they themselves labeled as disapproved by God. According to their own published policies, that action placed them outside the Christian congregation.

    Did they forget 1 Corinthians 15:33? If so, then Romans 2:1, 2 applies to them.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Dozy,

    Glad to see you back. I was busy typing when you posted.

    Do you have a candid answer for those two pesky questions yet, considering that the 1968 ECOSOC Resolution has no bearing whatsoever on an organizational Associate relationship to a UN Secretariat Department (the UN/DPI)?

    If the material you presented in our last discussion on this point was given to you by someone else, you were (without any question) misled, whether intentionally or unintentionally. If you collected it yourself as evidence, you misunderstood the departmental interrelationships you were analyzing.

    However, continuing to present such misleading information as evidence of innocence on the WTS' part would constitute active deceit if you fail to verify that your understanding is correct, even though the source of contrary information may be distasteful to you.

    If you have misplaced our previous thread, I will be happy to look it up for you. You are still gravely mistaken on quite a few points.

    I think the UN NGO business has to be put in the context of ...

    ... organizational policies that have been in place since 1983. Any other ending would be clouding the issue with intentions of the heart that mean nothing whatsoever and which you cannot know for certain.

    All Esau wanted was some food. He was hungry. Is there anything wrong with food? Of course not. But there was something wrong with what he chose to do to acheive his goal.

    If I make and publish a rule that you cannot ever join a secular organization that is disapproved by God on pain of expulsion from association with your friends and family, I better make damned well certain I do not join a secualr organization that is disapproved by God. Need a Scriptural proof?

    Romans 2:1-2—Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are, if you judge; for in the thing in which you judge another, you condemn yourself, inasmuch as you that judge practice the same things. Now we know that the judgment of God is, in accord with truth, against those who practice such things.

    I'd say your arguments run contrary to Paul's while my arguments are perfectly harmonious with his. What are your thoughts on that statement?

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Auld Soul

    Have you read all my post? I suspect not.

    If you have, perhaps you could help me out. Could you give a link to the WT study article I mentioned that specifically criticised the Catholic church for their NGO affiliation with the UN? And does anyone have a link to the scan of the original source that makes clear that it was NGO status that was involved?

    Also, could you help us out and tell us whether there is any firm evidence for specific Awake! articles being submitted to the UN as proof their support? I am really intrigued by this, and would appreciate if anyone could clear that one up.

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