Is God capable of learning anything?

by nicolaou 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Greendawn,

    To me your posts illustrate very well why, in our present cultural situation, "God" is not (yet) available, at least on a popular level, as a "free signifier". Somehow anything we call "God" has to be a creator, or, more abstractly, a cause of whatever exists.

    Personally the universe, complex and amazing as it may seem to us, strikes me first as not being made. Imagining the forms of the clouds, of the sea waves, of the star constellations, of the trees, of the living bodies as being fashioned or designed is nothing but a maker's artificial dream, the poetry of homo faber (craftsman) become homo sapiens sapiens. We cannot figure out how "things" came to be without imagining they were made just as we make things through technique. Hence our "creator gods" are necessarily craftsmen, builders, potters, etc.

    On a second reflective level, our amazement at reality is no less amazing than reality itself. We are, yet we wonder at being as if being were something strange to us, or as if we were strange to being. Consciousness (which is phenomenologically human consciousness, at least until some evidence of non-human consciousness appears) brought about (or perhaps revealed?) an irreducible difference into the world. This mystery is our mystery, and it cannot be one, for it implies the difference between being and consciousness of being. From the beginning the logos was with God, other than God even if it was God too; other than being even if it was too. As far as we look we project, or retroject, this basic difference which is the mirror play of our own mind onto reality and whatever "cause" we ascribe to it. Our myths, theologies, or scientific explanations have to describe not only what is, but our own difference with and within being, by which we know. Whether he "learns" or not, a "God" who both is and knows cannot be simple (at least to us) because we are not. Because to us being and knowing is not the same thing.

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou

    greendawn If god is the most complex entity in existence how would you respond to a paraphrase of your own statement?

    "The probability of getting that complexity is so infinitesimally small that it can occur only in theory but never in practice"

  • daystar
    daystar

    bttt

  • BlackSwan of Memphis
    BlackSwan of Memphis
    From the perspective of a believer God has revealed his qualities in the things we observe around us and we see there a level of knowledge that far surpasses anything humans can learn or know. From the minute atoms to the cell to the vast galaxies.

    Greendawn, what qualities in particular are you thinking of?

    On a second reflective level, our amazement at reality is no less amazing than reality itself. We are, yet we wonder at being as if being were something strange to us, or as if we were strange to being.

    Well, yeah, we question our being when we look out into the vastness of space and see that so far as we can tell we are alone. Or are we?

    Consciousness (which is phenomenologically human consciousness, at least until some evidence of non-human consciousness appears) brought about (or perhaps revealed?) an irreducible difference into the world. This mystery is our mystery, and it cannot be one, for it implies the difference between being and consciousness of being.

    Being= ? Existence?

    Therefore:

    Consciousness of being = ? Consciousness of Existence?

    I want to make sure I understand you correctly.

    By law (or whatever we would call it) to Be, one must be Conscious of Being?

    OR

    We can be (exist) and be unconscious of our being, thereby sleepwalking through life? Unavailable to the consciousness around us?

    From the beginning the logos was with God, other than God even if it was God too; other than being even if it was too. As far as we look we project, or retroject, this basic difference which is the mirror play of our own mind onto reality and whatever "cause" we ascribe to it. Our myths, theologies, or scientific explanations have to describe not only what is, but our own difference with and within being, by which we know. Whether he "learns" or not, a "God" who both is and knows cannot be simple (at least to us) because we are not. Because to us being and knowing is not the same thing.

    Ok, I think I’m going to get this wrong and I feel like I’m in a philosophy course, but for the sake of learning from the elders of the group I’m going out on the limb:

    Are you saying that in other words:

    The image in our mind of who we are is what we make God to be? The Logos was with God, was God and in a sense Not God. Yet all at once was God.

    And No it is not a simple thing. You are right.

    We can Be. We can exist, but not know a thing. We can be without knowing. Hm so God according to a nt theology cannot exist separate from knowing. Because from the beginning Logos was with him. Yet it was him. (or her if you prefer) Being a mirror image of what is in our own minds we cannot really exist separate from knowledge. At the same time we are trying to understand being, we are being.

    Ok

    If we are beings, conscious of everything and nothing, and we know that we are conscious, and we are trying to identify what that consciousness is, what essentially being is, and we come down to the idea that we just are. Wouldn’t that lead us to be able to basically say about God/dess (possibility of such) that if that being, consciousness, is a mirror image of our own minds, God/dess just is.

    Wouldn’t that in a way be an argument that God/dess is just being?

    Not A being, but being, existing consciousness within us and outside us?

    Does that make sense?

    meagan

    (be kind)

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Meagan,

    Being= ? Existence?

    Therefore:

    Consciousness of being = ? Consciousness of Existence?

    I guess so. At least I didn't mean anything more than "existence" when I wrote "being".

    By law (or whatever we would call it) to Be, one must be Conscious of Being?

    Why so? Stars, mountains, rocks, plants, animals are (or exist, if you prefer) without being conscious in the same sense as we are. True, our consciousness did not fall down from heaven. There is a continuity between "sentient" animals and man's "consciousness". We can recognise much of our "psychology" in animal behaviour and see the correspondences with our own feelings and emotions. But in us language creates a difference, making us an "I" which is not identical to what we are. A little (wo)man "within" which does not actually exist but becomes "us". That elusive no-thing which has a body (or even a soul). Only poetically can we read human-like subjectivity into the rest of the world (animism), or into the world as a whole (pantheism), or into some "cause" of the world (theism).

    We can be (exist) and be unconscious of our being, thereby sleepwalking through life? Unavailable to the consciousness around us?

    Can we? And what do we know of any "consciousness around us," if not by projecting our consciousness, which is dependent on human language, around us?

    If we are beings, conscious of everything and nothing, and we know that we are conscious, and we are trying to identify what that consciousness is, what essentially being is, and we come down to the idea that we just are.

    I was wondering why you so conclude. Am I correct in assuming that here, by "being" you mean more than existence, existence + consciousness? I.e., a dual notion instead of a simple one?

    What if human consciousness is an accident of existence? Sure we can believe it is more than that, but can we know it really is?

    Anyway you got my drift: the structural antagonism of knowledge and existence which is found in our minds is bound to be found in our gods too -- whether they really are "out there" or are only in our minds.

  • BlackSwan of Memphis
    BlackSwan of Memphis
    We can be (exist) and be unconscious of our being, thereby sleepwalking through life? Unavailable to the consciousness around us?

    Can we? And what do we know of any "consciousness around us," if not by projecting our consciousness, which is dependent on human language, around us?

    Consciousness around us being other people.

    If we are beings, conscious of everything and nothing, and we know that we are conscious, and we are trying to identify what that consciousness is, what essentially being is, and we come down to the idea that we just are.

    I was wondering why you so conclude. Am I correct in assuming that here, by "being" you mean more than existence, existence + consciousness? I.e., a dual notion instead of a simple one?

    Hm, no not necessarily. Ok, no. Why? Because how do we define consciousness? People who seem to be not consious might very well be conscious in a way we don't see. Like people who seem to be sleepwalking through life.

    What if human consciousness is an accident of existence? Sure we can believe it is more than that, but can we know it really is?

    Hm, that is interesting. Why not?

    Anyway you got my drift: the structural antagonism of knowledge and existence which is found in our minds is bound to be found in our gods too -- whether they really are "out there" or are only in our minds.

    So if they are only in our minds....

    Is it possible that the collective consciousness of the world has created a God that is in some ways real?

    I guess I mean...

    In the same way that some people think themselves sick, to the point of becoming sick, is it possible to think God into existance?

    meagan

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    LOL. Interesting misunderstandings.

    is it possible to think God into existance?

    I don't know if it is possible but it's beautifully put.

    Let's believe him-her-it nice, just in case.

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou
    is it possible to think God into existance?

    No, but it is certainly possible to think him out of it. That is something that humans are capable of learning.

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