I have this really crazy idea, please help ( nope not fluff)

by lola28 36 Replies latest jw friends

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    Could you provide some examples of this as this is not my area of expertise.

    Sure. Initially lorekeeping, recordkeeping, and subsequently writing (including hieroglyphy) were sacred arts within the purview of Shamanism and Priesthoods. This was true not only in cultures of Sumeria, but in far distant cultures as diverse as Celtic and Mayan civilizations.

    Lorekeeping was considered sacred, stories handed down carefully from generation to generation (no doubt changing along the way), and then hieroglyphy appeared to provide a way to use pictures in representing ideas. However, only the priesthood and the family of the Gods were allowed to learn the art of representative ideation. That isn't what they called it, but in modern terms that is what it was. Eventually, these gave way to characters that formed words to convey ideas. But the origin of writing and character representation was religious for the purpose of lorekeeping, which was a religious office in every discovered ancient culture (afaik).

    Papyrus making was not initially a trade for the general public, either. Gathering the materials, yes. Anyone could do that. Papyrus making was considered a sacred task. It was not a common writing medium, because the art of writing was not common. In fact, writing was taboo for all but the priesthood (counting shamen and druids as priests, who typically used stone or clay writing mediums). As with any technology, eventually the priestly duty was commercialized. For 1,000 years we lost the technology to replicate this once common writing medium. To this day, we have been unable to duplicate papyrus of the quality and durability present 2,000 years ago. We simply don't know for certain how they did it—although the prevailing theory is that the strain used differed from that available today. Pliny's Natural History outlines a method, but we haven't been able to replicate the quality.

    It is an interesting topic to investigate. This should get you started if you would like to explore the topic in your spare time.

    Gathering into large localized civilizations in ancient times only makes sense in a religious context. Otherwise, nomadic family groups are sufficient (and even preferred) to insure broad genetic diversity and keep from overly depleting food stuffs and other raw material in a given region. But the Gods (if you will) are obviously more favorable toward larger groups of their followers, grander offerings, etc. However, larger groups are poorly suited to nomadic lifestyles and food concerns quickly become a serious issue. How do you produce food for that many people? Grains are (over time) bred for maximum yield and irrigation ditches are dug. Water wheels and sluices are devised, carrying water for irrigation from great distances to water crops.

    The first cities in human history were temple-cities. And this is not true of just a few cultures. The connection of "collections of large groups of people in very localized centers" to "a perception of religious necessity" is clear throughout history.

    Without these developments it is highly unlikely (impossible) that sufficient diversity of ideas would ever have occurred within a given lifespan to produce the technologies we have today. The sharing of ideas in written form has allowed for us to build on the perceptions of those who are long dead. When attempts have been made to wipe out "heretical" schools of knowledge, the attacks have been leveled at the written word—because men die, but the books live on well past the men who wrote them.

    So, while I understand villainizing religion for its historical attempts to destroy knowledge and those who possess it, in my opinion it is important to remember that the books could not have ever come into being in the first place without religion.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    I think (an educated opinion) that bacteria can arise from amino acids in a variety of conditions.

    Midget-Sasquatch hit on the point I was initially interested in reading more about. Generating amino acids in the laboratory (afaik) requires conditions that cannot be established to have ever existed on this planet on a wide scale before, although the heat and pressure condition necessary to create peptides can be replicated and explained easily. The amino acids have to be present for the peptides to produce, in sufficient quantity to produce peptides—i.e. there has to enough locations of collections of amino acids to conceive that they eventually came into contact with the necessary heat and pressure.

    But peptides are a long way from bacteria. The likelihood of the peptide breaking down before conditions could be present to cause the coalescence and further ordering of the peptides is pretty high.

    You stated that your educated opinion is that bacteria can arise from amino acids in a variety of conditions. I would be thrilled to consider one such set of conditions, from beginning to end. We would have to start with the initial state that caused the amino acids to be present in localized quantity, and proceed from there. Any of the varied sets of conditions you wish to relate are fine, but please note whereever incredibly large environmental shifts would be required for the next stage of development to occur.

    My problem is, I can't think of a single set of conditions under which bacteria, a living, replicating single-celled organism, could have arisen from amino acids.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Just a tip to Lola: you might be interested in "Process theology"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_theology

  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch

    A professor I worked with for a little while (as a TA for his courses) was interested in viral vectors for gene therapy too. Most of his students were working with a variant of BAV ...can't recall if it was BAV1 or BAV2 though. What virus are you working with?

  • SickofLies
    SickofLies
    A professor I worked with for a little while (as a TA for his courses) ;was interested in viral vectors for gene therapy too. Most of his students were working with a variant of BAV ...can't recall if it was BAV1 or BAV2 though. What virus are you working with?

    Well, an educated question, I am constantly surprised at how educated people here are, especially since the borg is so forbidding when it comes to education! I am working with adenovirus (Ad) and more recently adeno-associated virus (AAV) based vectors. My research is focused on vector targeting at the level of virus. I am working with my professor on both non-genetic approaches; that typically utilise bispecific antibodies that both neutralise wild-type virus tropism and provide a new cell binding capacity and genetic targeting strategies, the virus capsid can be engineered to express foreign ligands that target selected receptors in the absence or presence of additional modification to ablate the virus'natural tropism.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    SickofLies,

    You, um, you stated that...your educated opinion is that bacteria can arise from amino acids in a variety of conditions. I would be thrilled to consider one such set of conditions, from beginning to end.

    I have never heard of such a set of conditions.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • SickofLies
    SickofLies

    AuldSoul; another long post to try and answer your questions...
    1) Where did the raw materials come from?
    The early earth is presumed to have provided all of the elements and chemicals needed for life to begin.
    2) How did monomers form?
    The Miller-Urey experiments in the late 40’s and early 50’s showed that organic molecules could be formed by inorganic processes under primitive earth conditions. By discharging electric sparks in a large flask containing boiling water, methane, hydrogen and ammonia, conditions presumed to be similar to those of the early earth, they produced amino acids and other organic molecules experimentally. Using variations of their technique, most of the major building blocks of life have been produced: amino acids, sugars, nucleic acid bases and lipids.
    Another source of amino acids and other organic molecule is meteorites. The amino acid content of the Murchison meteorite, for example, is surprisingly similar to that formed in the Miller-Urey experiments.
    Both by earth-formed and meteorite-delivered processes, the early ocean could have become the thin "organic soup" as the starting place for life. The first "organisms" presumably consumed these molecules both as building blocks and as sources of energy. Upon the exhaustion of these early molecules, other strategies had to be develop such as photosynthesis. The first forms of photosynthesis was probably non-oxygenic using inorganic molecules as a source of electrons to reduce carbon dioxide, however, when these sources were exhausted, oxygen generating photosynthesis was developed using water as the electron source. The generation of oxygen had a most dramatic effect on future evolution.
    3) How did polymers develop?
    Various suggestions about this process exist. Polymerization on clays or the evaporation of amino acid containing water near volcanic vents. Sidney Fox has demonstrated such polymerizations experimentally. Such reactions could have led to the polymerization of amino acids and nucleotides. Others believe that polymerizations occurred in cold environments where the polymers would be more stable.
    4) How did an isolated cell form?
    Harold Morowitz has proposed that the formation of closed, membrane vesicles was an early event in cellular evolution. Lipid molecules spontaneously form membrane vesicles or liposomes. ("Beginnings of Cellular Life", 1992, Yale University Press). Consider the following properties of membrane vesicles, which are also the properties of cells.
    1) They maintain separate stable phases in an aqueous environment.
    2) They maintain different chemical compositions between intra- and extra-cellular compartments.
    3) They maintain substantial transbilayer electrical voltages, pH differences, and oxidation potentials (necessary for chemiosmotic processes).
    4) They form spontaneously from abiotically formed amphipathic lipid molecules
    "What is impressive in simply listing the properties of vesicles is how many cellular features are already present in these simple systems. Strong reasons for assuming the importance of vesicles in biogenesis are their spontaneous formation and the continuity they make with contemporary cells in so many ways".
    5) How did reproduction begin?
    I have discussed this with you already in an earlier post; however to be concise, current theories suggest RNA came first. It could self-replicate and possibly serve as enzymes for protein synthesis. RNA has the ability to catalyze its own modifications without the use of protein enzymes. This as pointed out already si known as the RNA world view. Eventually the RNA it would be replaced by DNA and protein enzymes to take over information storage and enzymatic functions, respectively.
    Ribozymes exist and have been modified to carry out some of the important reactions of RNA replication such as stringing up nucleotides and oligonucleotides using ATP. Derived ribozymes can also be made to cleave chemical bonds including peptides. In translation on ribosomes it is probably the rRNA, not the protein, that forms the peptide bonds. Furthermore, ATP and all coenzymes are ribonucleotides which some consider are relics of the original RNA World. Thus there is reason to believe that there was an original RNA world which invented protein synthesis and only later was supplanted by DNA.
    The following is taken directly form one of my older biology text books:
    All life is cellular.
    All living things are from 50 to over 90% water, the source of protons, hydrogen and oxygen in photosynthesis and the solvent of biomolecules.
    The major elements of covalently bound biomolecules are carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus and sulfur.
    There is a universal set of small molecules: (i.e. sugars, amino acids, nucleotides, fatty acids, phospholipids, vitamins and coenzymes.)
    The principle macromolecules are proteins, lipids, carbohydrates and nucleic acids.
    There is a universal type of membrane structure (i.e. the lipid bilayer).
    The flow of energy in living things involves formation and hydrolysis of phosphate bonds, usually ATP.
    The metabolic reactions of any living species is a subset of a universal network of intermediary metabolism (i.e. glycolysis; the Krebs cycle, the electron transport chain)
    Every replicating cell has a genome made of DNA that stores the genetic information of the cell which is read out in sequences of RNA and translated into protein.
    All growing cells have ribosomes, which are the sites of protein synthesis.
    All living things translate information from nucleotide language through specific activating enzymes and transfer RNAs.
    All replicating biological systems give rise to altered phenotype due to mutated genotypes.
    Reactions that proceed at appreciable rates in all living cells are catalyzed by enzymes.

    I state the above as further evidence that all life has a common origin.

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