Commatology 101

by Caveat 15 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    HR,

    1 Peter 3:18ff, the original meaning of which is much debated, is just one element in the later doctrinal construct of a "descent to Hell". From Luke's standpoint this is not (yet) a problem.

    These verses are not mentioned to often among JWs, but I suspect that this is the reason why they claim that his ressurection was spiritual, not physical.

    Actually 3:18 is one of the favourite JW "proof-texts" for a spiritual resurrection.

    Couldn`t Jesus have just stopped by heaven with the dead robber he promised would be in paradise, and then went down to hell? Or maybe the dead robber was with him, by his side, even though this is not mentioned?

    LOL.

    By the way, the NWT translates "hell" here as "Tar-tar-us", another place from greek mythology than Hades, believing, naively, that this solves the problem of there being a place where the "souls" of the dead are kept. Tartarus was in greek mythology a place where disobedient gods (or in this case, angels) were kept to be punished. It is true that some manuscripts use "Tartarus", but I believe others use "Hades". And Hades was the place where the souls of dead humans were kept. Rather than being an argument for the "soul-doctrine", the three days in Hades is an argument for it.

    I'm afraid you're mixing 2 Peter 2:4 (which uses the verb tartaroô) into 1 Peter which has neither hades nor tartaros.

    The story of Jesus` death, ressurection and the three days inbetween is not really a coherent story. I guess that`s what makes it difficult.
    Sums it up pretty well.
  • unclebruce
    unclebruce

    It was Paulian and came from Greek Mythology Doc,

    The answer is found in the practical study of ancient history. Hercules for one spent 3 days in Hell so for Pauls new "Jesus Christ the risen" to match other Gods of the day he had to be made in the image of those other messiahs. Simple.

    unc

    PS: I feel like reviving some of my christianity's origins posts.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Another important description of the intermediate state between death and resurrection can be found in Josephus: "People depart from this life in accordance with nature's law, thus repaying what God had lent them .... Their souls (hai psukhai) remain without blemish, and obedient, and receive the most holy place in heaven. From there, when the ages come round again, they will again be sent into holy bodies" (Jewish War, 3.8.5). Revelation also makes reference to the "souls" (psukhas) of the righteous martyrs waiting in heaven for their vindication and future resurrection (cf. 6:9-11, 20:4). This language is influenced by Platonism, which uses the word "soul" to refer to the essence of the person that leaves the body at death; in older Semitic anthropology the word refers to the embodied person. In the Testament of Abraham, we have an account of the spirit of Abraham being taken into heaven while his body is buried on the earth, and this story has an interesting connection with Luke because it refers to the other patriarchs as residing in Abraham's "bosom" in heaven (compare Luke 16:22-31). In the Assumption of Moses known to the church fathers, there was a story about Joshua seeing Moses "double" after he died, one Moses being taken into heaven while the other Moses was the corpse awaiting burial (Jude 9 apparently alludes to the conclusion of this story).

    The view of Jesus' resurrection in Luke seems to along these lines, that at death Jesus in the spirit was taken into Paradise (like Lazarus) while in the body he was buried into the earth for parts of three days. Thus, Jesus commits his spirit into the hands of the Father at his death (Luke 23:47), while his soul (in the older Semitic sense, through allusion to the OT) lies in Hades where it could experience "corruption" (through corruption of the body) but which was raised back to life (Acts 2:23-33). The logic of the argument in Acts 2 is that David was not referring to himself when he wrote Psalm 16 for his tomb (and hence his body) was "still with us", so he must have been referring to Jesus who was raised as a whole person back to life and taken up into heaven (Luke 24:51, Acts 1:9). This does not preclude for Jesus an intermediate state which generally precedes resurrection, but there were different ideas on where the righteous reside during their intermediate state, whether in God's abode in heaven (= Paradise) which is the case in Revelation, Testament of Abraham, Josephus, and other sources, or in certain chambers of Sheol/Hades as is the case in 1 Enoch, 4 Ezra, and other texts. The tradition that Jesus spent his intermediate state in the spirit in Hades is not found in Luke-Acts but in other sources that develop the proto-gnostic descent myth (found in Ignatius, the Epistula Apostolorum, and later more mature gnostic texts) into a descensus ad infero myth (found in Odes of Solomon, Ascension of Isaiah, and other texts; 1 Peter 3:18-20 may form part of this tradition, but it is problematic in its interpretation).

    Paul actually has some very close parallels with Luke 23:43. In 2 Corinthians 5:1-10, he states that when "we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord" (v. 6), while in death we are "away from the body and at home with the Lord (pros ton kuriou)" (v. 8). This wording suggests that immediately at death (= "today") one goes to heaven to be with Jesus, an idea that appears in Luke 23:43. Similarly, in Philippians 1:23-24, Paul muses over whether he should "remain in the body" (= stay living in the flesh) or "depart (= die) and be with Christ (sun Khristó einai)". Finally, when discussing the advent of the Lord and the raising of the faithful to heaven, Paul states that then "we will be with the Lord (sun kuriou esometha) forever" (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The author of Luke seems to be retrojecting the post-resurrection situation between dying believers and Christ into the intermediate state prior to Jesus' resurrection.

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider
    I'm afraid you're mixing 2 Peter 2:4 (which uses the verb tartaroô) into 1 Peter which has neither hades nor tartaros.

    Narkissos, thanks for clearing that up, I didn`t mention it, but it was 2 Peter I was referring to with tartaros. But the story that is referred to, is the same (Jesus` three days in the underworld). Stillajwexelder: Yes, 40 days before his ascension to heaven, but do christians really refer to this day as the ressurection? I always thought that he had been ressurected after three days, and that when he appeared to the apostles, he had been ressurected. I am pretty sure this is accurate, because his appearance to the apostles is viewed as proof of his ressurection, with Thomas even touching him.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Leolaia,

    there were different ideas on where the righteous reside during their intermediate state, whether in God's abode in heaven (= Paradise) which is the case in Revelation, Testament of Abraham, Josephus, and other sources, or in certain chambers of Sheol/Hades as is the case in 1 Enoch, 4 Ezra, and other texts.

    In 1 Enoch, are the abodes of the ancient faithful considered as part of She'ol / Hades or contrasted with it (not that it would imply "heaven" btw)? HR, 2 Peter 2:4 is not about Jesus at all:

    For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell (tartarôsas) and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept until the judgment
  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Narkissos....I see we were talking about different portions of 1 Enoch....my comments pertained to the older "Book of Giants", particularly to 22:1-14, while your citations were of the "Book of Parables" (39:1-14) which has a very different conception....

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