God no god? Scholarly pseudo schorlarly?

by D wiltshire 12 Replies latest jw friends

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    First off I beleive in God's existance.
    That being said, let me proceed.

    There is much so-called scholarly debate on both sides, but lately on this forum it has been brought out what scholarly and pseudo-scholarly is.

    Scholarly: Compiles facts then makes deduction based on all facts as best as unbiasedly possible.

    Pseudo-scholarly: Makes deduction then compiles selected facts that support deduction, giving little validity to the contrary.

    So my point is if these definitions are true then the only one that can provide scholarly work on the existance of God is an Agnostic since those from the other 2 camps fall in the Pseudo-scholarly collectors of facts.

    I admit that my beleif is from selected facts and a discounting of others that I feel quite probably are wrong, but not from facts always but because I'm not a Scientist and don't keep up with all the data availible, it would be so so tireing for me. To me in my mind it works.

    So then can either camp(the beleiver, or nonbeleiver) prove that they are unbiased and that they collect facts and look at them dispassionatly?

    I'll defend your right to say it, but it doesn't mean I beleive it.

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    Brining it up

    I'll defend your right to say it, but it doesn't mean I beleive it.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    D Wiltshire said:

    : So my point is if these definitions are true then the only one that can provide scholarly work on the existance of God is an Agnostic since those from the other 2 camps fall in the Pseudo-scholarly collectors of facts.

    That conclusion does not follow from the stated premises. The notions of "scholarly" and "pseudo-scholarly" apply both to people and to works. An extremely biased person demonstrably can produce a relatively unbiased, scholarly work. Someone who is generally objective can produce a horribly biased, pseudo-scholarly work. One who regularly produces one type of work or the other attaches the label to himself.

    Works are also produced for different audiences and purposes. Some works are intended or billed to be objective. Whether they are what is intended or billed is another story. Other works are intended to persuade and do not necessarily make any pretense at being objective or scholarly. There is nothing particularly wrong with this kind of work, since it's at the heart of advertising and even of evangelism. What is wrong is for an author to bill his work one way when it is the other.

    AlanF

  • Introspection
    Introspection

    Both sounds like good points to me. Of course, it seems to me there is always a subjective aspect to the whole thing.. I don't know if there's too much point to it when your apply it to religion, actually. Lets suppose someone came up with a mathematical proof that God exists, does that make people love God or want to really be decent human beings, for it's own sake? Or would it be like "shit, there is a final judgement after all.."

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    Alan,

    Thanks for your response.

    In this quote:

    That conclusion does not follow from the stated premises. The notions of "scholarly" and "pseudo-scholarly" apply both to people and to works. An extremely biased person demonstrably can produce a relatively unbiased, scholarly work. Someone who is generally objective can produce a horribly biased, pseudo-scholarly work. One who regularly produces one type of work or the other attaches the label to himself.

    Just a couple of questions:

    What are the stated premises?

    So as you state that Scholar is just a label that one attaches to himself. I may have misunderstood you so please don't take me the wrong way.
    So is it just a self applied label?

    If that is the case then it explains my son-in-laws email to me.

    Dave

    Don't send me anymore emails about JW. I am confident
    and comfortable in my decisions, as I've told you
    before. I've done years of scholarly research and
    have come to much different conclusions than you have.

    Chris

    He just got his doctorate and so that expains why he said the above.
    I called him to task over this email and he kinda sorta apologized.
    He knows the Society lies, he even said to me that the Soceity is not the FDS but that they just use Matt.25 for their own benifit. There are also many other things he mentioned to me that he knows Society does that are phony, so when he said he did scholarly research of the Bible and Society I didn't think he spoke the truth.

    But if it's just a self applied label then he spoke the truth.

    I'll defend your right to say it, but it doesn't mean I beleive it.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    DW

    Scientists can prove things in laboratories. People can prove things by their actions. Can it be proved that god doesn't exist? Can it be proved that he does? I doubt both these statements. Why argue about the unprovable? Maybe we could leave it to god to prove his existence in an unambiguous way. Well god, for what are you waiting?

    S

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    SS,

    It wasn't my purpose in starting this post to argue about God's existance, but to explore the fact that both sides have their weak points.

    It is my beleif that a true Agnostic is much more likely to be so-called scholarly in his aproach and handleing of facts because he is not on a side.

    I'll defend your right to say it, but it doesn't mean I beleive it.

  • JanH
    JanH

    If scientists should be agnostic to God's existence, shouldn't they also be agnostic about anything else in the world?

    I doubt you will find a scientist that is "agnostic" about the idea that Thor (if you are Norse) or Zevs (if you are Greek) is the originator of lightning and thunder. I think he would emphatically state that these were old superstitions, but that currently science can explain electricity and related phenomena without resorting to supernatural deities.

    Why, then, should a scientist be expected to take seriously the claim that certain pheonomana (all phenomena, in fact) are caused by an ancient Semitic deity, once competing with Zevs and Thor? Isn't this special pleading just based on the fact that belief in this deity happens to be the kind of superstition that has survived into our time and is prevalent (among lesser educated people at least) in our part of the world?

    Science do not have to suspend judgement on anything that there is no positive evidence for whatsoever, since science is always open to new evidence anyway. Currently evidence for a deity is zilch, evidence against pretty overwhelming, and then scientists who follow the evidence stick to the provisional conclusion that such a deity does not exist.

    In conclusion: in a sense scientists should be "agnostic" to the idea of a god, but that is the same sense in which they should be open to every idea, no matter how weird, that hasn't been absolutely rejected yet (and a deity is at least very close here). That would make the term "agnostic" (meaning 'no knowledge') totally meaningless. After all, we do have a lot of knowledge about the universe, and that knowledge points anywhere but to the ideas of the superstitious ancients who created ideas about deities.

    I keep being amused at how many people who know so little about real science try to tell scientists what they should do.

    - Jan
    --
    "Doctor how can you diagnose someone with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and then act like I had some choice about barging in here right now?" -- As Good As It Gets

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    Jan,

    I've gone to your sight and have used it for plenty of good information to help others. For your work I thank you.

    You said:

    Science do not have to suspend judgement on anything that there is no positive evidence for whatsoever, since science is always open to new evidence anyway.

    I agree.

    Currently evidence for a deity is zilch, evidence against pretty overwhelming, and then scientists who follow the evidence stick to the provisional conclusion that such a deity does not exist.

    How do you know the evidence is near zilch? Are you falling into the camp of collecting only facts that appear to suport you veiw and not looking at the ones that go contrary.

    DO you think that maybe you might be just a little prejudicial in your conclusions sometime, like us all, come on, arn't we all that way even if we try real hard not to be.

    I'll defend your right to say it, but it doesn't mean I beleive it.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Hello, D Wiltshire:

    : What are the stated premises?

    They are the definitions you gave of "scholarly" and "pseudo-scholarly", which you referred to in the premise of your "if - then" statement:

    :: So my point is if these definitions are true then the only one that can provide scholarly work on the existance of God ...

    In other words, what I said was that your conclusion that "the only one that can provide..." does not follow from the definitions you gave.

    : So as you state that Scholar is just a label that one attaches to himself. I may have misunderstood you so please don't take me the wrong way. So is it just a self applied label?

    I did not imply or mean to imply anything about who applies these labels. My comments were about definitions, which are almost self-evidently true. Application of such labels is a whole 'nother ball game, since it involves judgments about things that are the subjects of the arguments themselves. It involves deciding just what evidence supports what conclusions and whether a particular conclusion follows from the evidence given. It involves deciding just what "biased" means, but such a decision is often difficult to impossible to make with certainty.

    Sometimes it's easy to establish bias in an argument. For example, if a large body of evidence is available, which contains material positive, negative and neutral towards a particular conclusion, and someone writes an essay that claims to be an objective look at the issue but leaves out all negative or neutral evidence, then it's easy to establish that the writer is biased and non-objective. But if some of the negative evidence is hard to come by, it's not so clear that the writer is biased. There are any number of factors that can weigh on whether a writer is biased or not, scholarly or pseudo-scholarly.

    So applying a label is a matter of judgment for each person. I usually judge that young-earth creationists are extremely biased, pseudo-scholarly writers because I've seen countless times that they carefully select their evidence and ignore what they can't deal with. On the other hand, a committed YEC will claim that their favored writers are objective and that non-YEC scientists are extremely biased.

    Since there is no authoritative, world wide organization that renders unassailable judgments about what is "scholarly" and what isn't, it's up to each individual to accumulate enough information to make his own judgments. So these labels can be applied by others or by oneself.

    In the case of your son-in-law claiming to have done "years of scholarly research", he might sincerely believe his claim, or he might just be saying that to get you off his case by pretending to have done more than he really did. You and I know very well what "scholarly research" tends to be for JWs -- reading WTS publications and nothing more. Perhaps, if the JW is unusually well motivated, he may go to a library and look up a few references and confirm that the words between the quotation marks are correct. But most of the time he won't make the effort to understand the original quotation and then judge for himself whether the WTS writer used the quotation correctly. In any case, you and I would judge that this self-proclaimed "scholarly" research is "pseudo-scholarly" because we can point to what we feel are biased "research" methods -- methods that serve only to confirm what a person already wants to believe. JWs can often be shown to engage in pseudo-scholarly research by challenging them to show, in the face of negative evidence, that a particular WTS conclusion is correct. Often they will fail to understand, or claim to fail to understand, simple points of logic or evidence. This is proof to you and me that the JW is biased.

    So your son-in-law may have convinced himself that he did "scholarly" research, and if he really believes this he would not be lying when he says he did. But the JW mindset is screwy enough that, as you pointed out, a JW can know intellectually that the WTS tells lies and yet blow it off as if it were nothing. Their minds then convince them that nothing is wrong, that lies are the truth. Is a person lying when he engages in such massive Orwellian doublethink? That's a difficult judgment to make, since we who were once JWs can look back on our own forays into doublethink and know now that we were lying to ourselves, but remember that we were not conscious of telling lies to others when we were still under the spell. In other words, doublethink allows a person to simultaneously lie and tell the truth, while being conscious only of telling the truth, and yet being able on a moment's notice to change "truth" and immediately forget the change.

    If this makes sense, great. If not, get hold of George Orwell's books Nineteen Eighty-Four and Animal Farm. They show what this sort of mind control is all about.

    AlanF

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