by jambon1 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I've poured over the scriptures wherein Jesus is quoted and have never found anything in his comments that referred to his death as a sacrifice
What this poster wrote was where 'Jesus is quoted'. All the references above from Hebrews etc. were NOT quotes from Jesus actually.
No one really believes Mary was a virgin do they????
Actually in the Gospels Jesus teaches us to love God our creator with all our being and to love thy neighbour as thyself. And this was while he was alive. Just the necessary stuff. None of this ransom garbage.
If Jesus was sacrificed to appease Jehovah's blood lust well that speaks for itself. If Jesus was sacrificed to appease a law above Jehovah and that law itself demanded innocent blood for humanities sins, well that's the law of the mob.
I prefer to read Jesus reported (and translated) words in the Gospels when he was alive rather than to the rabid murmurings about the "meaning" of his death.
Actually in the Gospels Jesus teaches us to love God our creator with all our being and to love thy neighbour as thyself. And this was while he was alive. Just the necessary stuff. None of this ransom garbage.I prefer to read Jesus reported (and translated) words in the Gospels when he was alive rather than to the rabid murmurings about the "meaning" of his death.
Unfortunately (?) there is little in the Gospels that can be traced back to a "historical Jesus," and hardly anything that must be traced back to him.
This being said, don't forget Mark 10:45 // Matthew 20:28. Ransom. Vicarious death. Not necessarily "sacrifice".
If Jesus was sacrificed to appease Jehovah's blood lust well that speaks for itself. If Jesus was sacrificed to appease a law above Jehovah and that law itself demanded innocent blood for humanities sins, well that's the law of the mob.
You've nailed THE problem, which is also where the notions/metaphors of "ransom" and "sacrifice" diverge imo.
To identify "God" to (1) the one who exacts "payment," (2) the one who "pays" and (3, at least to "orthodox" Christianity) the payment itself is ascribing him multiple personality -- a second, deeper, more antagonistic "trinitarian split" into so-called "monotheism".
This reminds me that my real drift from JWs started with a discussion on the ransom, right in Bethel, with a close friend of mine (who is still a JW btw). She beautifully called the "ransom" "God's mime show".
Thank you Narkissos for your reply to me. There is so little time and there is so much to learn and ponder. The more one learns the more one realizes there is so much more to know and try to make sense of.
The ransom sacrifice starts to make less and less sense as one goes on.
If God set the penalty for sin as death and ALSO that this sin spread to ALL men threreby everyone deserves to die. God then abruptly decides that He himself (if trinitarian) or his son (if not trinitarian) must die to appease or reverse the death penalty He himself imposed, which believe it or not is paid to God himself. If not to God himself then who is it paid to?
Something just doesn't seem right in all this.
Tor
Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. ~Eph 5:1,2For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever. ~Heb 7:26-28
For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. ~Heb 9:24-26
But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. ~Heb 10:12,13
That should be enough Scriptural quotations. He (Jesus) gave Himself as a sacrifice for you and promises eternal life to those who believe on Him for salvation.
Not necessarily, mdb. None of those quotes is from the mouth of the alleged sacrifice. They're just someone else's opinions. Is a sacrifice voluntary or mandatory. If it's mandatory, that rather negates the spirit of sacrifice, dudnit? How hard is it to comprehend that Jesus himself is quoted as saying that it was something he MUST do? Doesn't imply sacrifice at all IMO.
Frannie
I too have had a hard time with the ransom sacrifice.
It's rather like paying cash into an ATM, receiving a receipt for it but NOT seeing the balance on the screen.
Jesus died 2,000 years ago. All the miracles performed died with him. All the people he healed and resurrected died.
As you said, a sacrifice is something permanent.
Maybe Jehovah already planned to wipe out mankind after Adam and Eve sinned and Jesus said "Please Father, I will do ANYTHING to save the human race, I will give my life up for them."
"Ok Son, in 4,000 years time you can do this."
Now, I mean no disrespect to Jehovah or his Son, but what ARE we waiting for? The price has been paid? How many BILLIONS of people have died since 33 CE?
A nice illustration and a good analogy Truthseeker. It certainly does make one wonder. It sure would be nice if God or Jesus would let us know what is going on.
Tor
