Mormons: Bedrock of a Faith Is Jolted

by AMNESIAN 35 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • Shazard

    This happens when Cults try to influence this World. Jesus told that his Kingdom is not of this world, so the Christians ar not of this world, still have to exist in this World.

  • Abaddon


    The Book Of Mormon has plenty of proofs if you want to interpret the evidences in a certain way - just as evidence can be found against it:

    You can say this about ANY religious book!! The writings of Ron Hubbard for example. Hell, the Chronicles of Narnia, or the Lord of the Rings have "plenty of proofs if you want to interpret the evidences in a certain way". The fact you want to interpret evidence in a certain way so as to have belief in the Book of Mormon has precisely NOTHING to do with whether it is factual or not. What your statement illustrates is your continued failure to accept the fact there are commonly accepted reasonable standards of evidence, and your inability to step away from presuppositionalism. Mormons have , are and will further niche themselves Qcmbr, just as per JWs. There is as much evidence for the LDS having a 'true prophet' as for Charlie Russell being inspired of god. i.e., none, apart from the evidence indicating they are not a true prophet. They have a niche for those born in and too intimidated or stupid to get out, and a niche for those with poor critical thinking skills who are desperate for some form of identity and belonging with a fantastical pay-off at the end, who get sucked on. They also have a niche for men using the original doctrines of the church to have plural marriages - sometimes with disgustingly young women. They used to have a niche for second-class Mormons - black people. But even Mormons had to accept the fact their religion was founded on nasty misogynistic and racist principles and reject such doctrines - although just as the JWs do, when they change their mind they wrap the parcel of shit up nicely so the Rand and Files don't feel too stupid. Apart from an overwhelming desire to believe in errant nonsense (two cults down, how many to go...?) I am sure you are a fine person. You'll obviously chuck this one when you accept reality - your statement 'if we niche I'm out' is not the most enthralling statement of faith I've ever heard, but it makes it clear you are in it for results, results that you will never see. Pity you have to waste life to find this out.

  • LittleToe

    I've often considered that faith in a cult is at most risk from ex-members of similar cults, rather than ex-members of the cult to which you belong.

    The message is exactly the same, but the barriers are reduced as it doesn't directly impact your immediate worldview. It allows a reasonable level of critical thinking to sink in, as you discuss rational things with those who were never your peers.

    When Q eventually leaves the Mormons (though that might risk alienation from exisiting friends and family, for all the lack of a formal shunning policy) he would probably make the best candidate for helping get our families out of the JWs.

    Regardless of whether or not that pipedream comes true, and regardless of whether he does actually see that light, I still like him

  • hooberus
    BOM describes a migration from Asia at the time of Tower of Babel - that population numbers millions by time the Israelites arrive (numbering in the tens.) The Israelites are described as having cities way before they would have been able to breed that many people which suggests an immediate mingling with other people. The Israelites ae pared back by war several times to only a few hundred and these then intermingle with a group of principally phoenicians with very little Israelite blood. In all this time there is nothing that says that there weren't migrations from Asia at a constant rate. All in all I'd be stunned if you found any Israelite blood in the US according to a strict reading of the BOM. On the other hand the author of the BOM (assuming it wasn't Joseph Smith on trippy time) didn't make any distinction between races when referring to different groups - in fact it seems that the major distinction is political (i.e. if a city changes hands in battle so its citizens change designator - not the way we would normally describe it) so to that style of author you could easily claim Israelite heritage for all when in reality its a notional concept.

  • Leolaia
    these then intermingle with a group of principally phoenicians with very little Israelite blood

    Phoenicians were Northwest Semites just like the Israelites were....

    As for the limited geography hypothesis mentioned in the article (i.e. that the Book of Mormon only refers to a relatively small population in Mesoamerica), this is discussed at length in American Apocrypha (which looks at the BOM with a text-critical and higher-critical approach), which points out that text itself is not consistent with the Tehuantepec geography assumed by the theory (cf. Alma 22:32, 50:34, 63:5; Mormon 2:29, 3:5; see the discussion by Vogel & Metcalfe, pp. ix-xvii), while the traditional hemispheric interpretation is most felicitous with the text itself (cf. Ether 1:33-34, 42, 2:17, 7:11; Helaman 11:20; see the discussion in George Smith, pp. 125-133).

    A good article on the DNA evidence is by Thomas Murphy on pp. 47-77.


    Thanks, Scully .

  • Think

    Book of Mormon ? I have the "priviledge" to read "IT".

    If this is book inspired by God, so is Book " Selling for Dummies" .

  • Abaddon


    Liking him is neither here nor there as far as his religious beliefs go. One can like someone whose religious beliefs you disagree with and vice-versa. He means well, and I mean it when I say I'm sure he's a fine person.

    It allows a reasonable level of critical thinking to sink in, as you discuss rational things with those who were never your peers.

    Yup, precisely the point in Hussian's Combatting Cult Mind Control. Attack a characteristic of a cult by using a cult the person you are speaking to will be quite happy to be critical of. You can get them to attack a characteristic their own religion has... and hopefully they will realise that, even if you're avoiding a direct reference.

    And sometimes, they do it themselves!!! They attack a characteristic of another 'cultic' / toxic thinking group - like the Mormons ignoring or "explaining" away inconvenient scientific data. When they do it themselves!! WHo could possibly ever do anything like that?




    I love the fact you embrace DNA evidence.

    Any comment on the numerous falsification of your Creationistic-esqe beliefs that DNA evidence provides? Oh, hang on a minute... no, you couldn't be...

    Who would have believed it?

    hooberus, I'm sure you're a fine person too. You know only to well my opinion of the validity of your beliefs.

    Do think about this.

    You're so obsessed in ignoring the massive consensus of scientific data your literalistic beliefs conflict with, so busy tilting at windmills, so intent on attacking any opinion which disagrees with your own... that you use science, the same science you "explain" away or flatley ignore when it's inconvenient, to attack someone whose beliefs conflict with yours.

    Kinda mad, eh?

    It's not about the evidence for you, it is about the beliefs. You'll use or ignore reasonable proof as it suits the defence of your belief. It's there on the page in black and white.


    Your posts never cease to delight. If I normally 'did' "Who's Hot?" threads, I'd vote for you.


    If this is book inspired by God, so is Book " Selling for Dummies


  • sf

    I feel as Scully...good to see you Amnesian.

    Take good care, sKally

  • Qcmbr

    Abbaddon you do talk some cr*p sometimes.

    I'd be interested in your evidences of the Narnian story....please feel free to play devils advocate and pretend to some.

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