a look to Isaiah. (page 3)

Shazard

Narkisoss
You wrote: What you obviously overlook is that most of these expressions, especially in GJohn, are equally applied to the believers
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This is da same error JW use so much. Choose one and only one meaning of some word and then render context to mean things in sync with that chosen meaning. When Jesus told that he and father is one Jews was ready to stone him... if he that would be for just "unity of teaching ideas moral" then what... Jews was not in unity? They thought that they are, so no stoning for such claims. Stoning is for blaspemy. So Jesus "me and father are one" should be observed in context. And in John 17 it is obviously unity in worldview but in John 1:1, John 10 John 14 Christ is revealing his nature. Same word, different context.

Same goes with Holy Spirit. JW does big claims about words "spirit" meaning etc. and just ignores simplest rules of understanding. That it is context whic defines which meaning of the word is implied, not otherwise.

As I told... most of antitrinitrians just do not understand definition of trinity. You can't refute something you don't understand!

Spectrum

Narkissos,

"This is what the LORD says—
your Redeemer, "

I been through a few of the verses you point to and I find this one typical.

My interpretation is:
The Lord is also the Redeemer ie he is the Almighty God( Creator) but to the jews he was not just the Creator but a God that redeems(an aspect of His love perhaps). Eg As a human I'm the creator of my son but also his disciplinarian, but I'm still the same person in the singularity. The trinity is not infered at all.

Maybe the Lord wrong footed the Jews and sent someone they weren't expecting and were left scratching their heads!!

As christians we took it for granted that Christ was the Son of God - his first begotten. Where in the OT do the prophecies suggest that He would send his only Son? Did the Jews have a concept of Son of God?

Narkissos

mdb, thank you.

Shazard, you didn't get my point. Let me try it once more: if, for instance, the Johannine Jesus prays that his disciples "may be one as we are one," this means neither that the unity of Father and Son is a divine absolute which is inaccessible to believers (common Trinitarian conclusion), nor that the unity of Father and Son is only moral as the unity between believers (common unitarian conclusion), but that the full divine unity ultimately extends to all. Also note that the argument in John 10:34ff only makes sense if the Father and the Son are not the only ones to be rightfully called "gods".

Spectrum,

Did the Jews have a concept of Son of God?

You might find some background on this in the link I gave above, http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/66342/1.ashx

moggy lover

Hey mdb, Your candour was as invigourating as it was moving. It certainly moved me. There is no need to apologise because we are all friends here. I certainly hope that I did not say anything that could be construed as offensive because it was not intended to be.

Your relationship with the Lord is something that I can only encourage, and I hope you grow and grow in it. "Kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you" [2 Tim 1:6] You may not realise it but you help us in more ways than even we suspect.

If, like me you accept the Deity of Christ, then like me, you will stand on tiptoe whenever the Name is Named and you will, like me be amazed at how much we can all learn together in this great adventure we call life.

Incidently, that comment regarding the beer.........It was only a gag ......OK?

Cheers

I-CH-TH-U-S

A crucial verse the Lord used in showing me what was meant by "and his Redeemer" was Isaiah 45:11. "...Holy One of Israel, and his Maker..."

It is evident that the word "his" in the phrase "and his Redeemer" is speaking of Israel

i think i may be wrong.....but the thought just came to my mind.....

isnt israel reffered to as a SHE in the bible and not a HE?

any support or contradiction to that?

Narkissos

isnt israel reffered to as a SHE in the bible and not a HE?

Only exceptionally, in some complex units of figurative speech (parables, fables, quasi-allegories) where it may be personified as a woman. Even in those cases a careful examination of the text may show that the literal reference is to a city (Samaria, Jerusalem, e.g. Ezekiel 16) rather than the nation itself (although, of course, at the interpretative level the city may stand for the nation).

The natural usage in Biblical Hebrew is to refer to nations/peoples (Israel, Judah) as masculine (think of the eponyms, Israel = Jacob, frequent alternative in 2 Isaiah) and cities as feminine.

NowImFree

I have a question for those of you who do not believe in the deity of Christ. Don't you think it is possible, since the Watchtower Organization has lied and deceived it's members about sooooooooooo many things, that the greatest lie of all would be for them to mislead people about the identity of Christ? Doesn't it seem strange to you that they don't allow all their "believers" to take communion? Doesn't it seem strange to you that their members are not "allowed" to call on the Savior for salvation? Think about it, I mean really think about what is going on there.

Thank about the fact that both Jehovah in the old testament and Jesus in the new testament are called creator. They are both called Savior. Jehovah in the old testament says he is the ONLY Savior. In the old testament, it says every knee will bow before Jehovah. In the new testament is says every knee will bow before Jesus and confess him as Lord. They are both called the First and the Last. They are both called King of Kings and Lord of Lords. In the new testament it talks about being filled with the spirit of God and the spirit of Christ in the same paragraph. It says of them both that their kingdom will never end and they will rule as King for ever and ever. They are both called Mighty God, yes Jehovah is called Mighty God also in the old testament. If there is only one true God and Jehovah in the old testament says there is none like him and no other Gods forms before him or after him, how can Jesus be called God in various places? Does that mean he is a lower god when there is only one true God. He would either have to be a false god or he wouold have to be one with Jehovah, which only makes sense by understanding the Trinity or that God has manifested himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Nothing else makes sense. How can their be all these parallels, what was he trying to show us? The mystery is the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Jesus calling himself Son of Man and Son of God was him showing that he was both human and Divine united, the one and only unique Son. The same substance as the Father, indivisible from the Father. It is hard to understand but if you think about the fact that the bible says Jesus emptied himself and made himself NOTHING, leaving all his glory behind. He had to come in the form of a servant and fulfill the law in order to set us free. In order to fulfill the law, he had to submit to the Father in order to be a perfect human sacrifice and set us free from the power of sin and the curse of the law and condemnation.

Sorry to ramble, I love talking about this.

The JWs deceive in the ultimate way.

NowImFree

Star Moore

Sorry but I've been a witness for 26 years...dropped out and still trinitarians...irk me... JESUS IS NOT GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NowImFree

But Star,

How do you explain the things I mentioned? If you believe the bible, how do you explain that the same titles that are applied to Jehovah in the old testament are applied to Jesus, like Creator, Savior, First and Last, etc? Just curious.

NowImFree

mdb

Star,

That's the problem, you've been a Witness for 26 years. You've been fed lies for 26 years. It must be a difficult thing to come to terms with and even harder to believe anything after finding out most everything you did believe in isn't true.

References of Jehovah applied to Jesus Christcall on the name of the Lord: Rom 10:9-13; Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21; Rom 10:9-13
everlasting light: Isaiah 60:19,20; Rev 21:23
the glory: Isaiah 6:1-5; 42:8; 48:11; Jn 12:41
voice in the wilderness: Isaiah 40:3; Mk 1:2-4
voice like rushing waters: Ezek 43:2; Rev 1:15

Some other questions to ask yourself...

Bondservants of God or Christ?: Titus 1:1; 2 Pet 1:1
Church of God or Christ?: Gal 1:13; 1 Cor 15:9; Rom 16:16
Gospel of God or Christ?: Rom 1:1,9,16; 15:19; Gal 1:7; 3:8; 1 Thess 2:2,8; 3:1,2; 2 Thess 1:8
Holy Spirit sent by the Father or Jesus?: Jn 14:26; 16:7; 1 Cor 6:19
Kingdom of God or Christ?: Eph 5:5; 1 Thess 2:12
Who is the life?: Deut 30:20; Rom 8:10; Col 3:4
Who raised Jesus from the dead (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)?: Jn 2:19; 10:17,18; Acts 2:32; 3:15; 4:10; 13:30; Rom 1:4; 6:4; Eph 1:19,20; 1 Pet 3:18
Servants of God or Christ?: Rom 1:1,9; Gal 1:10
Throne of God or Christ?: Rev 22:1

Who dwells in us who believe (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)?: Jn 14:17,26; Rom 8:9,11; 1 Cor 3:16; Gal 4:6; Eph 2:22; 3:19; 5:18; 2 Tim 1:14

regarding the Spirit...
Sent by the Father or Jesus?: Jn 14:26; 16:7; 1 Cor 6:19
Spirit of God: Rom 8:9,14; 1 Cor 3:16; 12:3; 1 Thess 4:8
Spirit of Jesus Christ: Rom 8:9,10; Phil 1:19
Spirit of truth: Jn 14:17; 15:26; 16:13; 1 Jn 2:27; 4:2; 5:6
Spirit is Lord: 2 Cor 3:17

a look to Isaiah.

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