God on Trial - #1

by Amazing 30 Replies latest jw friends

  • chappy
    chappy
    Rather, the issue is why God himself ordered the genocidal extermination of an entire city, men, women, children, even babies. Why, in the face of his own command to Israel not to murder - part of his perfect Law through Moses - wold God then cause Israel to murder an entire city?

    Bottom line Amazing, He didn't. The Bible is mixed with factual and unfactual history, poetry and LOTS of metaphor.Inspiration comes, not from taking it all literally, but asking to understand how a particular verse or chapter refers to your life personally. Some of it may never apply to you. There are some that apply to everyone. Depends on your circumstances. The Bible is a personal document
    The Bible isn't the only literature I've found God given inspiration from. That's what works for me.

    later,
    chappy

    later,
    chappy

  • Skeptic
    Skeptic

    Amazing,

    So, it seems that even when Jesus Christ himself tried to clear up the marriage arrangement to be monogamus,

    Where did Jesus say marriage had to be monogamous? He talked about divorce, but he never spoke against polygamy.

    You may be thinking of what Jesus said at Matt. 19:4, 5...the WTBS interprets this to say Jesus was promoting monogamy, but if you read the account, he is talking about divorce.

    The reason I am asking you this is that I wrote a page on polygamy, and I want to keep my facts straight. My page on polygamy is at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/2260/bible/polygamy.html

  • MadApostate
    MadApostate

    Amazing:

    Quote: "How do you respond?: How can we answer? By what right can Jehovah God command it illegal and wicked to murder, and then not only violate His own laws, but have his very people under this Mosaic Law violate that law? Does this mean that murder is only murder if we do it without God's orders? So then, the Law was not some perfect standard foreshadowing the Law of Love. Rather, it seems like a mockery, a rule that can be set aside at any time when it is inconvenient to keep."

    RESPONSE:

    Murder is a crime per Government. Government declares War in furtherance of nation purposes. Now, soldiers can be legally instructed to "kill" those whom the Government designates, and such "killing" is not "murder".

    Jericho was no different than Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, etc.

    Might makes right.

  • bigboi
    bigboi
    What right did they have to come in and steal the land, kill many people, and plunder the spoils? God told them to. Why? What possessed God to work this way?

    I don't think you can say that the Israelites stole the land. The land had already been promised to Abraham and his descendants by God. Also according to the Bible the Canaanites were a ppl condemned by God. He just pronounced the sentence upon them, using the Israelites as executioners. According to God the land and everything in it was given to his chosen ppl. Therefore, at least from that perspective, it was all theirs and they had a right to take it. God also had every right decide the manner in which the conquest would proceed.

    I also liked the point MadApostate brought out. What the Israelite soldiers did was not murder. They were acting as God's executioners in this instance. I don't think that equates to the sadistic practice of genocide that you see happening today.

    Although I must say I am beginning to see your point. How would the history books read in Bosnia or even Nazi Germany had they won their respective conflicts?

    ONE....

    bigboi

    "life's a bitch a with a g-string and a twelve pack of Busch."

  • Flip
    Flip
    Might makes right.

    That's the scary part Mad. This planet has a powerful economic infrastucture that is based on the premise that Christianity has some sort of cosmic credibility. When in fact the 'human protection' it proposes is based on nothing than sloppy biblical writings wide open to anyones interpretation.

    Sometimes I wonder how humanity has even survived this long, however subjective that statement is.

    Flip

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    chappy,

    : The Bible is mixed with factual and unfactual history, poetry and LOTS of metaphor.

    The Bible is mixed with factual and unfactual history, poetry and LOTS of metaphor bullshit.

    Farkel

  • waiting
    waiting

    Soooo, if Hitler (or his followers) wrote a book - or even put the stories forth in verbal form that they were chosen by God to inherit the earth and all others were to be in submission to them, and that they could annilate any who were condemned by the true Nazi God (the Jews, gypsies, JW's, homosexuals, political, etc.) .......then it was ok for them to do it because God said so.

    When Abraham existed (if he actually did) - there was no written law. When Mose got the Hebrews to leave Egypt, there were no written laws. Just verbal stories passed on for generations.

    The Israelites wanted a homeland - they took the best land because they could, and said their God told them they were destined to have that land and they said their God told them to kill all those who resisted them - and they did just so. And they wrote that their God blessed them.

    Not much different than any nation today who goes to war - "God's on our side" - as long as they win.

    waiting

  • GinnyTosken
    GinnyTosken

    Reading this thread, I thought of this section from Skinny Legs and All by Tom Robbins.

    Ginny

    ----------

    “Ah, but there is no comparison,” Abu objected. “The Israeli army uses excessive force in quelling protests on the West Bank, true enough, and sometimes sadistic and cruel force, but even though it is racially motivated, and directed against my cousins, I must regard it an insignificant trifle compared to the Holocaust—”

    “Hold on, my friend,” said Spike. “For one minute, hold on. Holocaust? We Jews perpetrated our own holocaust, I’m telling you. When? Who against? Over three thousand years ago against the Canaanites, that’s when and who. How is the Land of Canaan turning suddenly into the Land of Israel? By what sale, what deal, eh; what magic trick? By a holocaust. The Hebrews escaping from Egypt invaded Canaan and killed everybody, the whole country, old men, women, children, little babies what were in arms. A million, we butchered. Look it up. In history, maybe the first recorded act of genocide. The only Canaanites left alive were a few what were good for slave labor.”

    “Wow!” said Ellen Cherry. “That’s pretty heavy. But that was a very long time ago. And, anyway, weren’t the Jews just taking back their homeland; you know, fighting to recover their promised land from these Canaanites?”

    “Ha! So who is telling you this? The ghost of Moses, maybe? A homeland the Hebrews have never had. We’re nomads, already. Our tribes shlepped through this Canaan, lived there among its inhabitants for a while. Then, most of them moved on into Egypt. So, a long time passed, and then the Hebrews were slaves of the pharaoh, too bad for us, and this guy Moses told them, ‘Hey, we’re getting out of this mess, we’re going to escape.’ And the Jews said, ‘Okay, but where’s it to that we’re escaping, already?’ ‘To Canaan,’ Moses said. ‘Canaan is our rightful home in case you’ve forgotten it. God spoke to Abraham personally and said, “I promise you the Land of Canaan. You are my number one people what I’ve chosen, and Canaan is the place I’ve set aside for you, for your own forever.” Good. Only nobody read the fine print, which said that to move into our new home, we had to slaughter hundreds of thousands of human beings what were living there at the time.”

    “You’re not exaggerating, Mr. Cohen? Wasn’t Canaan kind of a wilderness area that was open for settlement?”

    “Hoo boy! You young people today, you’re knowing nothing very much. An advanced civilization, we’re talking about here. Already two thousand years old when the Hebrews invaded it. A lot of our culture comes from Canaan. You believe, darlink, that God told Moses go invade an advanced civilization, pilfer its territory, and kill all its people? Suppose in Westchester you had a nice house, and I stayed there the weekend as your guest, and then years pass and one day I come back and say, ‘God promised me your house.’ You would believe such a cockamamie story? No, you would not. So, okay, I murder you and your kids and your grandmother what’s in a wheelchair and your cat and your dog and your three goldfishes. And I say to the neighbors, ‘It’s my house now, don’t be peeing on my lawn.’ Hoo boy!”

    “I guess we got America the same way,” ventured Ellen Cherry. “From the Indians.”

    Spike ran his index finger, stubby and liver spotted, along the rim of his dry glass. “Okay, yes,” he said, “but at least John Wayne never said that God promised it to him. He honestly stole it.”

    He paused. “I can tell you something?” He paused again, and Ellen Cherry could detect tearwater magnifying the green gooseberries of his eyes. “I can tell you something? Why I changed my birth name? Abu knows this, but no other body. I quote to you from the Old Testament. Joshua ‘carried off all the livestock of these cities,’ meaning the cities of Canaan, ‘but all the people he put to the sword, not sparing anyone who breathed.’ Joshua ‘plundered,’ Joshua ‘burned,’ Joshua massacred,’ Joshua ‘wiped them out,’ Joshua ‘put to death,’ Joshua ‘turned his forces,’ ‘all were taken by storm . . annihilated without mercy and utterly destroyed,’ Joshua ‘subdued,’ Joshua ‘slew,’ Joshua ‘left no survivors.’ In your Christian Bible you will find this nice story of this nice guy Joshua. You think I could go on living when I wear the name of such a man?”

    Ellen Cherry was both touched and embarrassed. She reached out and patted the cuff of his canary-and-catsup plaid sport coat.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Belbab: You ask some very good questions and raise additional issues. Here is my take on what you ponder:

    "Why, towards the end of World War II, were two cities in Japan, preserved from being bombed by "conventional" bombers, and then completely annihilated, children, old people and animals totally devasted, by atomic bombs?

    First, we can both agree that God had no hand in the atomic bombs dropped on Japan, or at least He make no claim of any involvement. What happened to Japan was during an act of war by humans, who at the time, saw this as the best way to finish the war. It was partially for revenge as well. However, in retrospect, it was wrong, as humans do make such serious decisions and act them out. I cannot justify what happened, nor can anyone truly justify the wrongs committed by both sides.

    "Does God have the same viewpoint on death as we do? Many of us believe he is the Creator of Life, but we are critical when he is also the Destroyer of Life."

    I can understand, as a human, that at some point, God can make the decision to execute justice and rid the world of evil people. He reportedly is a just and wise God, and therefore, can make a careful and fair decision. God is reportedly capable of doing this in a mericful way - just simply "beam the bad guys out" without all the collateral damage that a human effort might cause.

    "If you had power, time and motivation, How would you settle the crisis in Palestine, today? We have suicide bombers on one side, tanks and planes on the other side, practising selective killing. I am not saying which side is right or wrong. I just want to know how you would solve the crisis. Children are being wiped out here."

    If I had the power that God reportedly has, I would simply cause the bad guys to stop and become exposed and brought to justice. I would make my presense known and call upon people to act in peace, to live and work together in peace. I would tell them that I do not support any of their religious systems or ideas. And, if they do not work to get along, then I will kindly and peacefully move them apart from one another. Maybe create an island in the huge oceans and "beam" one group there and tell them that they need to now accpet their new situation or get 'beamed' to another planet.

    If my power was mere human, perhaps President of the USA, I would pull out all military and economic aid, and tell Israel and the palestine that the USA is minding its own business. If my power were that of a local human leader who had total authority, I would divide Israel in half, and place the Palestinians on one side and the Jews on the other, with a big wall in between. When they can decide that they can act like adults and get along, then the wall could come down. But, I would not commit extermination and wipe out one group over the other.

    "At Jericho, God also was in on the destruction, he knocked the walls down. and the city was wiped out. According to my partial knowledge of history down through the ages, there were some very atrocious activities going on . Would you want prisoners to be taken, and worked to death to enhance the conquerors wealth. Would you want women to be preserved, and then raise their sons to continue the conflict in twenty years? Would you want children to be preserved, and like a legend of the natives here on the West coast, where an old couple captured children, tied them up in their long house to a pole, fed them to fatten them up and then butchered and ate them, as they needed them through the winter."

    Obviously, I would not want that. Were I God in that situation, I would have Israel settle somewhere that no one else claimed as their territory. I would have left Canaan, Jericho and other groups alone. If they went to attack Israel, I would simply put up a forcefiueld to block them. End of story. You know, God has all this cool power, why not use it more wisely?

    "One last point a little closer to home. We have this pedophile question within the ranks of an organization that claims that God's name should be honored above all else. Some are devouring the children while they are still alive. They are traumitized in their infancy, and the Opposer keeps them bound for the rest of their lives. Many have been the comments on this board that demand that they be locked up for life. Not too many centuries ago, they would have their heads lopped off."

    True. I believe that a special camp or walled city needs to be created for pedophiles. I believe that they are sick people who cannot function in society, and that too many in society act in revenge, such as when they are registered in a neighborhood. Too many 'neighbors' harass and harm them. They need to be studied by medical science to find a cure for their illness. Then, maybe one day, with a simply shot or pill or new type of counseling they can be cured and allowed to be part of society again.

    "Humanity is being created , I hope, in the image of a loving God. Humanity is being raised from barbarism, to the ideal of a collective Son of Man. Maybe it takes a destruction of a Jericho, to hasten that eventuallity."

    I agree, Thanks for your interesting comments and good points. - Amazing

  • Julie
    Julie

    Hi Amazing,

    Good post. As I saw in this thread, this is a bible-thing really. The whole bible argument reminds me of what many a poor JW wrestles with: turn your back on the organization, you turn your back on God. Obviously this is nonsense. Could not the same be applied to the bible? Coming to terms with the reality of how incredibly un-Godlike the bible is doesn't necessarily mean you cannot believe in God any longer. It merely means you don't have to live in fear of the venegeful, spiteful and oh-so-angry biblegod.

    As for the whole belief thing based on Jesus and the new testament teachings, I may have gone that way too if it weren't for all the talk of old testament stuff. The old testament is so violent and evil while the new testament is very contradictory and makes many claims that the old testament is "sacred". Toss in a few comments that some of the old teachings are in error and there you have it, nonsensical teachings.

    Is there a God? Maybe. Did he/she have anything to do with the bible? Inconceivable.

    Take care,
    Julie

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit