1.John 5,7

by Hellrider 13 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Has anyone tried discussing this one here before?

    1 John 5,6 - 8: Jesus Christ is the one who came by water and blood – not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 5:7 For there are three that testify, 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three are in agreement.

    I don`t understand this verse. I assume the Spirit is the holy spirit, the blood is Jesus Christ, but what`s that water thing? In early greek philosophy, it was sometimes speculated in that "water" was the element that everything came from (they were looking for that "first substance", Thales, wasn`t it?). Is the "water" here supposed to be the equivalent to God, or something? (don`t want another trinity debate that spins off into crazyness, just interested in the views on this particular verse)

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    There is a complex and rich water symbolism in the Johannine writings, involving both cleansing and drinking water (both aspects are tied together in the Cana story for instance). Upstream (!) of it is the Qumran/baptist cleansing use of living water, the sapiential tradition about wisdom as water of life; downstream is Gnostic symbolism identifying water with Spirit, e.g. in the Odes of Solomon:

    6:7ff:

    1. And His praise He gave us on account of His name, our spirits praise His Holy Spirit.
      For there went forth a stream, and it became a river great and broad; indeed it carried away everything, and it shattered and brought it to the Temple.
      And the barriers which were built by men were not able to restrain it, nor even the arts of them who habitually restrain water.
      For it spread over the surface of all the earth, and it filled everything.
      Then all the thirsty upon the earth drank, and thirst was relieved and quenched;
      For from the Most High the drink was given.
      Blessed, therefore, are the ministers of that drink, who have been entrusted with His water.
      They have refreshed the parched lips, and have aroused the paralyzed will.
      Even living persons who were about to expire, they have held back from death.
      And limbs which have collapsed, they have restored and set up.
      They gave strength for their coming, and light for their eyes.
      Because everyone recognized them as the Lord's, and lived by the living water of eternity.

    11:5ff:

    1. And I was established upon the rock of truth, where He had set me.
      And speaking waters touched my lips from the fountain of the Lord generously.
      And so I drank and became intoxicated, from the living water that does not die.
      And my intoxication did not cause ignorance, but I abandoned vanity,
      And turned toward the Most High, my God, and was enriched by His favors. (...)
      Blessed are the workers of Your waters, and eternal memorials of Your faithful servants.

    30:

    1. Fill for yourselves water from the living fountain of the Lord, because it has been opened for you.
      And come all you thirsty and take a drink, and rest beside the fountain of the Lord.
      Because it is pleasing and sparkling, and perpetually refreshes the self.
      For much sweeter is its water than honey, and the honeycomb of bees is not to be compared with it;
      Because it flowed from the lips of the Lord, and it named from the heart of the Lord.
      And it came boundless and invisible, and until it was set in the middle they knew it not.
      Blessed are they who have drunk from it, and have refreshed themselves by it.

    1 John 5:6ff is traditionally understood as anti-docetic (meaning the Christ did not come only at baptism = water to leave the human Jesus before the cross = blood), but I doubt this makes justice of the text, which has the "Son of God" = "Jesus Christ" as subject, and clearly alludes to John 19:34f where both water and blood are associated with the crucifixion.

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    I still don`t get it. Yes, I understand there is a rich water symbolism. The blood definitely has to do with Jesus, and the crucifiction. And water is perhaps symbolic for...life? And life is also Jesus Christ, and the life in Christ, and thruout John, the unity of Father and Son is stressed constantly. What struck me about this verse, was the

    5:7 For there are three that testify, 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three are in agreement.

    - part. It looks trinitarian. But if not, what is this supposed to mean?

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman

    According to the Believer's Bible Commentary:

    Having stated in the previous verses the Person and work of Christ, John now goes on to state the trustworthiness of our belief in Him. He says that there are three that bear witness (the words "in earth" should not be included), the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. Although the word of God should be sufficient for us, as a basis of faith, He condescends to give us a threefold witness concerning the truth. First of all, the Spirit of God bears witness to the truth that Jesus Christ is God and that He is the only Savior of the world. The witness of the Spirit is found in the written word of God.

    Then there is the witness of the water. We believe that this refers to what happened at the baptism of the Lord Jesus. At that event, God opened the heavens and publicly proclaimed, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Thus God the Father added His own witness to God the Spirit con­ cerning the Person of Christ.

    Finally, there is the witness of the blood. On the cross, the Lord Jesus bore witness concerning Himself that He was the Son of God. No one took His life from Him; He laid it down by Himself. If He were a mere man, He could not have done this. The blood of the Lord Jesus Christ witnesses that the sin ques­ tion has been settled once and for all to the satisfaction of God. All these three witnesses agree as one. That is, they are united in the testimony concerning the perfection of the Person and work of Christ.

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Ok, Neonmadman, thanks. If that interpretation is correct, I personally see this as very trinitarian. 1 John was written between 90 and 120 AD. Looks to me that the trinitarian thought was present already then...

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    HR, I fail to see how the traditional interpretation (Spirit, Baptism, Cross) as reflected by NeonMadman's quotation has anything to do with the Trinity. The exact meaning, I suppose, is partly lost to us because we do not know what the sacramental system of the Johannine community was. Was there some sort of baptism? John 3:5 is generally understood as referring to baptism, but this is perhaps reading too much of the orthodox practice into it. John doesn't describe Jesus' baptism, insists that Jesus did not baptise (4:2); he avoids mentioning the Eucharist (6:51b-58 is a probable orthodox addition) and has the washing of feet instead (chapter 13). Some Gnostic groups practiced a water Eucharist. And there was an anointing (chrisma, 1 John 2:27) too, another sacrament common to many Gnostic groups.

    Whatever, the main point is that the three (Spirit, Water and Blood) are into the one (neuter), eis to hen eisin. "Agree" is the weakest rendering; leading into the divine unity (just as the Father, the Son and the disciples are one) is stronger, but not unwarranted, I feel, in this context.

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Narkissos:

    I don`t see any meaning in this passage, if it only refers to baptism and blood. What`s the meaning of this sentence:

    5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three are in agreement.

    ...if it only refers to three symbolic ...eh..."things"? Jesus` blood is symbolic. So is water, used in baptism. And the spirit, I assume that is the "christian spirit", which is also a very vague notion. So no, I don`t understand this passage, if it only refers to three of the aspects of the christian faith. And why stress the "one-ness" of these three things? Anyway: I`ll take your word for it. I guess the problem is that I don`t quite understand the way those people were thinking, back then. But thanks.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    As for what is meant by "water and blood", the key is v. 6 which states that "Jesus Christ came (elthón) by water and blood, not with water only, but with water and blood". It is interesting that a specific denial is expressed towards a view that he came by water alone, and if docetism is what is being attacked in the letter (at least in part), then this could mean that Jesus did not come by baptism (= water) alone as some docetists believed (i.e. the idea that the heavenly Christ descended and entered Jesus at his baptism), but also in the flesh (= blood), such that "Jesus the Chrst has come (eléluthota) in the flesh (en sarki)" (1 John 4:2), i.e. that he was human physically. It is also noteworthy that at his baptism, water and Spirit (in the form of a dove, John 1:32-33) was present, and at his crucifixion, water and blood were present (John 19:34). But the passage most specifically alludes to the witnesses mentioned by Jesus as testifying to his status as Christ:

    "If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is valid. You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved. John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light. I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life" (John 5:31-40).

    Here the topic is the same....the question is testimony about whether Jesus was sent by God as the Christ. Jesus also mentions one human witness and three non-human witnesses, but unlike in 1 John, the three non-human witnesses are (1) the work commissioned to Jesus, (2) the Father himself, and (3) the Scriptures. 1 John mentions that, like John, there are human witnesses but that God has higher testimony: "We accept the testimony of human witnesses, but God's testimony is much greater, and this is God's testimony" (1 John 5:8). It is possible that the author has loaded double meaning to the words "water, blood, and spirit" and intends an enduring sacramental sense (which continue to testify to Jesus, namely, baptism, the Last Supper, and the Spirit in the church), but the exact sense is uncertain.

    As for the agreement between the three witnesses, I think this clearly refers to the OT legal requirements on witnesses: "A single witness cannot suffice to convict a man of a crime or offense of any kind; whatever the subject, the evidence of two witnesses or three is required to sustain the charge" (Deuteronomy 19:15). This law is alluded to specifically in John: "If I judge, my judgment will be sound because I am not alone. The one who sent me is with me; and in your Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is valid. I may be testifying on my own behalf but the Father who sent me is my witness too" (John 8:16-18). There may be a loose connection however with the proto-gnostic concept of making plurality into a unity (cf. Thomas 22:4, 30:1, 106:1).

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    It is interesting that a specific denial is expressed towards a view that he came by water alone, and if docetism is what is being attacked in the letter (at least in part), then this could mean that Jesus did not come by baptism (= water) alone as some docetists believed (i.e. the idea that the heavenly Christ descended and entered Jesus at his baptism), but also in the flesh (= blood), such that "Jesus the Chrst has come (eléluthota) in the flesh (en sarki)" (1 John 4:2), i.e. that he was human physically.


    The problem I have with the historicist antidocetic sense is that, in this perspective, (1) "Jesus Christ" is an odd subject to the verb "come" (in the flesh, by water and blood), and (2) the perfect tense of 4:2 and the present of 1 John 7 are strange too. I don't feel the author is so much concerned with the "earthly Jesus" as with validating the current "faith" (spiritual experience tied with concrete sacramental practice) of the community. Right from the start "what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life" is not about ancient history but living experience.

    The reference to the Johannine Passion is clear (where we have not only water and blood in 19:34, but spirit in v. 30 with the double entendre of "he gave up the spirit," paredôken to pneuma), which in turn is reminiscent of the Gospel developments on spirit-life-water (2:6ff; 3:5; 4:7ff, especially 7:37ff; with water-spirit running from one's belly); the reference to Jesus' baptism is more dubious since such baptism is not mentioned in GJohn.

    As to the Gnostic sacraments one interesting piece is the Gospel of Philip which mentions water a lot, both in reference to baptism / ablutions and the mix of water and wine in the Eucharist in reference to GJohn.

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider
    As for the agreement between the three witnesses, I think this clearly refers to the OT legal requirements on witnesses: "A single witness cannot suffice to convict a man of a crime or offense of any kind; whatever the subject, the evidence of two witnesses or three is required to sustain the charge" (Deuteronomy 19:15

    Aha! That`s it! (..I think). Ok, then that explains the insisting on the three-ness and one-ness and all that. No, I don`t see any trinity-thing in this anymore now. Thanks for clearing that up, guys.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit