MATTHEW 24:34 !!! (page 2)

fairchild

Yeah. To be honest, I walked away very shortly after discovering JWD. Without this site, I might still be going to the meetings.

Nate Merit

Thank you TS!

I enjoy reading your posts very much. You and Leolaia both make my visits here a lot of fun.

You keep on rocking too. (I love that song)

Yours in Life,
Nate

It`s a good post, NM. But I`m not so sure I agree. What you`re basically doing with this post, is kill off all prophetic statements made in the Gospels about future events. Jesus said "this generation will see all these things". So, if "all these things" means Jesus return from the skies, in the same way he he went up there (gospel of John and Acts), and war, famine etc, and judgement day, yes, then you are right. All these things did no occur before the generation that saw Jesus died. But the whole generation that saw Jesus was allready dead when the gospels were written, anyway. Whoever wrote Mark, Matthew, Luke and John were probably aware of the problem. I personally see the "this generation will not pass away" in a more "poetic sense". Perhaps it refers to some kind of mental state in the individual. This would be in agreement with John, where eternal life together with Christ is seen as an internal state, that begins in the present.

Narkissos

But the whole generation that saw Jesus was allready dead when the gospels were written, anyway. Whoever wrote Mark, Matthew, Luke and John were probably aware of the problem.

Interesting point. Leaving aside the question whether there was ever a "generation that saw Jesus," I think part of the answer lies in the multiple development of traditions.

(1) the early Gospel of Mark, which is the first to include the "generation" saying, might have been written shortly after 70 AD. From this perspective, and belief in an imminent coming of the Son of Man, the saying was meaningful even referred to the time generally ascribed to the earthly Jesus (the 30's).

(2) Matthew 24 seems to confirm the Markan perspective, insisting that the cosmic signs in heaven leading to the coming of the Son of Man should occur "immediately after" Jerusalem's fall (v. 29). Even if the Gospel of Matthew as a whole was released decades later, it still makes sense in view of the conservative treatment of traditions in this Gospel which doesn't cringe from recording embarrassing statements (there is an even more embarrassing one in 10:23 about the coming of the Son of Man before the end of the apostles' mission to Israel only) and episodes (e.g. the resurrection of the "holy ones" in 27:52f). Iow, individual traditions are transmitted however absurd they may sound. But the final writer puts them all into a different perspective with the almost timeless statement in the final conclusion (28:18-20). This reflects the ancient practice of "censorship by addition": instead of suppressing embarrassing passages which are too well known, something is added which changes their perspective.

(3) Luke on the other hand is very cautious to separate Jerusalem's fall (chapter 21) from the coming of the Son of Man (chapter 17). In many places he avoids any reference to short-term expectations: the Master of the parables is gone for a long time (20:9).

(4) John, of course, drops eschatology altogether or reinterprets it according to his present (proto-Gnostic) view of "eternal life".

TD

I realize this thread is not exclusively about the JW interpretation of Matthew 24:34, but in line with Nates original illustration, it strikes me that the JW's are an exceptionally good example of the kid who hates to lose so much that he will change the rules on the fly.

The reason I say this is that while other religions will redefine the terms in an attempt to make the sentence applicable centuries after it ostensibly was uttered, the current JW "light" on the subject is more than just a redefinition of words. Its a complete abandonment of prepositional logic all together.

The temporal expression, heos acts as the terminus of the conditional statement. ---'A' will not happen UNTIL 'B' happens

Here it's obvious that the negation of event 'A' demands its temporal posteriority relative to event 'B'

The "Passing" of "This Generation" (Or more precisely the strong negation of that passing -- ou me parelthe) is event 'A' and whatever is meant by the "fulfillment" of "all these things" panta tauta genetai is event 'B.'

However the new JW definitions force 'A' and 'B' are into a single event in time.

"The wicked generation that takes no note of the sign will not be executed at Armageddon until Armageddon occurs."

They've not only redefined the terms to fit their failing eschatology, they've reduced the sentence to meaningless tautolgy as well.

Nate Merit

Hello Hellrider!

You wrote:

"I personally see the "this generation will not pass away" in a more "poetic sense". Perhaps it refers to some kind of mental state in the individual. This would be in agreement with John, where eternal life together with Christ is seen as an internal state, that begins in the present."

Even when I was a fundamentalist I would occasionally have moments of clarity when I 'snapped out of it' and realized dead men do not come back to life, walk out of their tombs, and fly away. There were times I realized, even as I do now, that the Bible is a story book. A fascinating story book with a deeply engrossing history, but a story book nonetheless.

Therefore, I am in sympathy with your statement. Certainly we must look for the non-literal interpretation of fantastic claims such as the parousia (par OOZE ee-ah in modern Greek..I always hated hearing my JW friends pronounce it par oo SEE ah), etc. I apply these verses allegorically, which is probably not far from your poetic sense.

One can also simply dump the Bible and Christianity, which is what I did for a decade. I sought spiritual reality in Far Eastern thought, and became a Buddhist priest. Slowly I came to realize that all religions are a response to the experience of the Numinous. Some are better responses than others, yet at heart they spring from the same Source. They all make use of Mythology. So, I returned to "the faith of my fathers" but not as a literalist. I feel a deep unity with all spiritual people no matter what path they have chosen, but my feet are firmly in the Hermetic mystical tradition of the West. Gnostic Christianity.

The Incarnation, the Crucifixion, the Death-Resurrection-Ascension-Deification, the Kingdom of God are actually stories about each of us. We are all the Divine Reality in material form. We are each the Incarnation. The death-resurrection-ascension-deification are each our own inner experience if we choose them to be and work toward achieving that experience of transcendence.
The Kingdom of God is within us.

All of that as a preliminary for this: I am the egg man. I am the walrus. Koo koo ca choo!

Some days my mind refuses to cooperate with itself!
Yours in Life,
Nate

Nate Merit

TD, this is brilliant. I sent it off to Mark Smith, who put together this article on Matt 24:34. I'm curious. How did so many of us who have perfectly good minds wind up being Jehovah's Witnesses? LOL. I have an excuse! I had a terrific crush on a JW gal named Toni Taylor at age 15. I'm now 52. Remembering her face and smile is still a very pleasant experience.

So, in my case it was hormones. :)

Yours in Life,
Nate

yaddayadda

TD

"The temporal expression, heos acts as the terminus of the conditional statement. ---'A' will not happen UNTIL 'B' happens

Here it's obvious that the negation of event 'A' demands its temporal posteriority relative to event 'B' "

HUH? translation into English please.

TD

Nate

So, in my case it was hormones

I can identify with that. (Sometimes at this stage in life, it's bittersweet.)

yaddayadda

If 'A' wil not happen until 'B' happens, then B must of necessity happen before A.

In other words, "All these things must occur" before this generation "passes away."

This separation does not exist in the new JW interpretation, because "passing away" is no longer death from old age, it is execution at Armageddon.

Honesty

Dear Nate,

You seem to keep forgetting that:

1. The Governing Body is never wrong.

2. If you suspect the Governing body is wrong refer to # 1 and it will all be so clear.

MATTHEW 24:34 !!!

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