by trem 59 Replies latest watchtower bible
Heathen,
Saved, that is a word like justified and I did not say they were saved or justified? You are discussing rules for those in the Faith and I am not. This great crowd are also resurrected or changed, they are immortal human beings like everyone else including our Lord but so what? Second death still has authority over them. They must successfully pass a final test. Only then will they be considered as saved.
Joseph
This great crowd are also resurrected or changed,
I don't think resurrected because they are alive but changed somehow so they can reach the safety of the kingdom prior to the destruction of earth sounds more like it . I think it's going to be like a noahs ark cenario where the kingdom lands on earth and only those found in the book of life are saved from destruction .
I just want to say I really like reading Joseph's, Nark's, and Leolaia's posts. How refreshing they are in comparison to the kingdom hall. You guys are the best. :)
Heathen,
the seven heads are not seven hills but seven kings
Whatever the reason (I pointed earlier to the possibility of a blending of two different sources) the text itself (17:9ff) does interpret them both ways.
JosephMalik,
It is unreasonable to think that only Christians inhabit a kingdom when He himself said: 1Jo 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. So where are they? They are this great crowd as I pointed out.
Yet another foreign textual ingredient into the soup. I assume that by "He" you mean "John" as being the author of both the Johannine epistles and Revelation... which I doubt. Whatever, if there is some room in Revelation for a "wider salvation" I guess it is to be found in chapter 20, with the postmillenial resurrection of the dead, the judgement "according to their deeds" and the "book of life".
"It is (un)reasonable to think"... where did I hear that many many times before?
Heathen,
Earth is not going to be destroyed at least not for a very long time. The new heavens and new earth simply contrast our old heavens (governments) and old earth (sinful mankind) with the new ones that will replace them. This is the planet on which humanity was seeded and the one on which such seeds will mature. After that we have no information only guesses.
Narkissos,
The He is our Lord the sacrifice which function is identified by John speaking for him. And: "It is (un)reasonable to think"... where did I hear that many many times before?
No telling but now you can say that you have heard it here.
Joseph
No telling but now you can say that you have heard it here.
Leolaia--- That is some far out stuff you come up with, is that your own personal take on things or is that part of some group think?
It's how most Bible scholars interpret the text. See Charles, Moffatt, Aune, Beale, etc. etc. It's also how the earliest Christian commentators interpreted the text, at least with respect to what Babylon, the Beast, etc. represent. It seems far out because you're out of touch with the historical and conceptual context of Revelation. Also, as I pointed out before, you also fail to realize that the interpretation of Babylon as Catholicism (or all "false religion" according to the Watchtower Society) owes its very existence to the earlier understanding that Babylon = Rome.
Now you are saying the seven heads are not seven hills but seven kings? I don't think you can have it both ways there .
LOL!!! The text has it both ways! That's the very point! Go read Revelation 17 again.
I thought the WTBTS came up with some doozies . Good God OK OK , so in your opinion what is the lamb beast that keeps projecting the image of the scarlet beast and forces all people to worship the image and take a mark on the their hand or forhead ?
This beast is the "false prophet" of 13:11-17, who induces the world to worship the Beast. Again, we need to read ch. 13-14 in light of the broader Antichrist tradition in Jewish and Christian apocalyptic literature. Many sources assume only one Antichrist, who is the Devil incarnate (cf. Didache 16:4, Sibylline Oracles 3.63-74, and Ascension of Isaiah 4:1-14, which explicitly identifies this figure as "Nero"), while others posit two figures: the Devil himself and his servant through whom the Devil works his evil (such as in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-10, which distinguishes between "Satan" and the "Man of Lawlessness"; cf. also Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses 5.25-28). Revelation posits three figures: Satan, the Beast (= the Antichrist), and the False Prophet who induces the world to worship the Beast. While other apocalypses claim that the Antichrist alone is the one that performs signs and wonders, in Revelation, ch. 13, the Beast performs the wonder of raising himself up from the dead and the "false prophet" also "worked great miracles, even calling down fire from heaven" (13:12). The main role of the "false prophet" is to act as a ringleader to force the world to worship and follow the Beast instead of Christ.
Since the author intends the mythological Antichrist figure to be realized as a Roman emperor along the lines of the Nero redivivus rumor, it is possible that the "false prophet" is to be identified with the person who had the same role in the Roman Empire as attributed to the second beast in Revelation: the high priest of the imperial cult (as suggested by Aune and others). Thus in 13:14, "he told those who dwell on the earth to make a cult statue in honor of the Beast", which as we know from ch. 17 represents the emperor, and "anyone who refused to worship the statue (i.e. all the faithful Christians) were put to death" (v. 15). Compare the Ascension of Isaiah 4:8-11 concerning the returned Nero, that "all the people in the world will sacrifice to him ... and he will set up his image before him in every city". Enforced idolatry was exactly what happened in Asia Minor, especially in the same cities that Revelation is addressed to, where imperial altars have widely been found and where civic decrees were promulgated prescribing all citizens participate in the worship of the emperor. For instance, Pliny described how he ordered Christians to make "offerings of wine and incense to your [i.e. Emperor Trajan's] statue which I had ordered to be brought into court for this purpose along with the images of the gods" (Epistle 10.96.5-6). As I mentioned earlier, the cult of the goddess Roma was based in Asia Minor (the first temple built in Smyrna in the first century BC), and her temples were centers of the imperial cult. The high priest of the imperial cult during the reign of Augustus had the title "the high priest of the goddess Roma and the Emperor Caesar Augustus, the son of God", and he was located in the city of Pergamum (the same city in Revelation 3:13, where "Satan himself lives" and where Christians were being induced to commit idolatry and eat "food sacrificed to idols", as 3:14-15). After the reign of Augustus, the high priest of the Asian imperial cult was called "high priest of Asia" (arkhierous Asias). The "false prophet" however not only has the role of inducing worship and "giving breath" to the statue, but also political power in forcing everyone who wanted to "buy or sell" to accept the mark of the Beast. This suggests that the "high priest" here also has the powers of Asiarch.
I think you are saying that whoever wrote revelation was just interpreting some pagan beliefs instead of divine visions ? Makes no sense to me ....
What pagan beliefs? BTW, the idea of Nero redivivus wasn't "pagan", it was shared by pagans, Jews, and Christians alike. It was a rumor that was widespread throughout the empire.
Well Leolaia I gave it an honest read and it's not making any sense so no point in continuing . Are you religious ? I did have other comments I thought about posting but this is really getting redundant .
JosephMalik --- The bible does say the earth is destroyed on the great fear inspiring day of God almighty . Luke 17:26-36 The earth is destroyed by fire just as it was by water in noahs day. I don't see how the WTBTS thinks people are just going to sit in a kingdom hall and survive . completely riddiculous .
The bible does say the earth is destroyed on the great fear inspiring day of God almighty . Luke 17:26-36 The earth is destroyed by fire just as it was by water in noahs day. I don't see how the WTBTS thinks people are just going to sit in a kingdom hall and survive . completely riddiculous. Heathen, The earth was not destroyed in Noah’s day and is still here intact. The earth will not be destroyed by fire either but will continue intact just like it did then. There was a lot of death, and maybe some destruction but you missed the reasons entirely. The reasons such changes will take place will be to accommodate the Son of Man that will return to administer earth’s affairs once again. These verses show that no one survives as the WTBTS teaches. No one can simply live through this time when the Son of man is revealed. No matter where they are or what they are doing, they must be taken by our Lord. They must be changed and become immortal human beings or be resurrected as such. Mortal humans, flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom. Immortal humans with spiritual or God given bodies can. After all the plan is for our Lord to return here once again in the flesh to rule. And humanity will exist with Him and enjoy a lifespan unheard of in our day with eternity in sight. Joseph
I'm not saying the earth will explode or anything but saying as far as humans and animal life existing here will be extremely dangerous . Those that are left outside the kingdom are destroyed and only those that are written in the book of life and reach the safety of the kingdom are saved .IMO
I do have a different take on this than just about any religion out there . As you say people are changed to enter the kingdom, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom . To me it makes sense than to have people sitting in a kingdom hall while the world is being destroyed , also I don't believe in a rapture but that christ returns to earth to rule , so a bit different twist on that as well .
