Wrestling with God? Pop goes the Hip?

by bboyneko 2 9 Replies latest jw friends

  • bboyneko 2
    bboyneko 2

    Hey anyone else come across this passage in Genesis and wondered what the heck happened??

    New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    Footnotes are in paranthesis and BOLD

    Genesis 32
    23
    He took them and sent them across the stream. And he sent across whatever he had.
    24
    Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak.
    25
    When he saw that he had not prevailed against him, he touched the socket of his thigh; so the socket of Jacob's thigh was dislocated while he wrestled with him.
    26
    Then he said, ""Let me go, for the dawn is breaking.'' But he said, ""I will not let you go unless you bless me.''
    27
    So he said to him, ""What is your name?'' And he said, ""Jacob.''
    28
    <*3> He said, ""Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel(he who strives with God); for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed.''
    29
    Then Jacob asked him and said, ""Please tell me your name.'' But he said, ""Why is it that you ask my name?'' And he blessed him there.
    30
    So Jacob named the place Peniel (the face of God) , for he said, "" I have seen God face to face, yet my life (Literally, SOUL) has been preserved.''
    31
    Now the sun rose upon him just as he crossed over Penuel, and he was limping on his thigh.

    I have come across research that suggests Israel worshiped not just YHWH, but another God called El. And this is the God he wrestled with in that passage. I'm going to quote what this guy was saying:
    I have added to this in BOLD the scriptures he cites using Young's Literal translation bible and Darby bible and included footnotes

    The Tetragrammaton and the History of Israelite Religion

    By

    L.M. Barré

    It is not common knowledge, even among many biblical scholars, that Israel embraced the worship of more than one god. I am not referring to acts of apostasy but to the fact that El and as well Yahweh were worshipped by the Israelites.

    The important issue of the historical relationship of El and Yahweh seems to have evaded scholars due to an uncritical acceptance of Israel's own explanation of the relationship of the two gods. In an episode ascribed to the Elohist, we find the writer making an identification of YHWH with the god of the patriarchs:

    Then Moses said to El(ohim), " I am to go, then, to the sons of Israel and say to them, The god of your fathers has sent me to you. But if they ask me what his name is, what am I to tell them?" And El(ohim) said to Moses, "I Am who I Am. This," he added, "is what you must say to the sons of Israel: I Am has sent me to you " And El(ohim) also said to Moses, "You are to say to the sons of Israel: YHWH, the god of your fathers, the god of Abraham, the god of Isaac, and the god of Jacob, has sent me to you." This is my name for all time; by this name shall I be invoked for all generations to come. (Ex 3:13-15)

    Exodus 3
    13
    And Moses saith unto God, `Lo, I am coming unto the sons of Israel, and have said to them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you, and they have said to me, What [is] His name? what do I say unto them?'
    14
    And God saith unto Moses, `I AM THAT WHICH I AM;' He saith also, `Thus dost thou say to the sons of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.'
    15
    And God saith again unto Moses, `Thus dost thou say unto the sons of Israel, Jehovah, God of your fathers, God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this [is] My name -- to the age, and this My memorial, to generation -- generation.

    Note that the writer does not provide the traditional name of the god. Rather, he is here evasive on this point and chooses to identify the traditional god merely as the one that the patriarchs worshipped. However, two earlier episodes from his epic reveal that the god's name is El. In the story of Jacob's dream (Gen 28:10-22), the patriarch comes to realize that he has unwittingly chosen to sleep in a sacred space. Accordingly, he named it Bethel ("temple of El").

    16
    And Jacob awaketh out of his sleep, and saith, `Surely Jehovah is in this place, and I knew not;'
    17
    and he feareth, and saith, `How fearful [is] this place; this is nothing but a house of God, and this a gate of the heavens.'
    18
    And Jacob riseth early in the morning, and taketh the stone which he hath made his pillows, and maketh it a standing pillar, and poureth oil upon its top,
    19
    and he calleth the name of that place Bethel, [house of God,] and yet, Luz [is] the name of the city at the first.

    Even more revealing is the account of his wrestling match with a mysterious opponent: I have already quotes this scripture at the top

    That same night he rose, and taking his two wives and his two slave girls and his eleven children he crossed the ford of the Jabbok. He took them and sent them across the stream and sent all his possessions over too. And Jacob was left alone.

    And there was one that wrestled with him until daybreak who seeing that he could not master him, struck him in the socket of his hip, and Jacob's hip was dislocated as he wrestled with him. He said, "Let me go, for the day is breaking." But Jacob answered, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." He then asked, "What is your name?" "Jacob," he replied. He said, "Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have been strong against El(ohim), you shall prevail against men." Jacob then made the request, "I beg you, tell me your name." But he replied, "Why do you ask me my name?" And he blessed him there. Jacob named the place Penuel ("face of El"), "because I have seen El(ohim) face to face, " he said, "and I have survived." (Gen 32:23-31)

    Note that as in the exodus account, the revelation of the name of the deity is crucial. Both Jacob and Moses want to know the name of the god they have encountered. (The Elohist is fond of drawing his theology from names). The interpretive crux in this episode is found in El(ohim)'s response to Jacob's request: "Why do you ask me my name?" This is because he has already revealed it in changing Jacob's name to Israel. Jacob takes his point and accordingly names the place Penuel, realizing that he has looked upon the face of El. This realization is confirmed by the short episode that states that when Jacob arrived in Shechem, he built an altar and called it, "El is the god of Israel." (Gen 33:18-20).

    Genesis 33
    18
    And Jacob came safely [to the] city Shechem, which is in the land of Canaan, when he came from Padan-Aram; and he encamped before the city.
    19
    And he bought the portion of the field where he had spread his tent, of the hand of the sons of Hamor, Shechem's father, for a hundred kesitahs.
    20
    And there he set up an altar, and called it El-Elohe-Israel.

    It is clear, then, that for the Elohist that El was the name of the god of the fathers and of all Israelites for that matter or the name Israel would have no significance. In this regard, the Priestly Writer makes the point explicit:

    God spoke to Moses and said to him, "I am Yahweh. To Abraham and Isaac and Jacob I appeared as El Shaddai; But by my name Yahweh, I did not make myself known to them. (Ex 6:2-3)

    Exodus 6
    2
    God also said to Moses, "I am the LORD.
    3
    I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty,(FOOTNOTE: Hebrew El-Shaddai) but by my name Yahweh I did not make myself known to them.

    What does the production of this tradition that identifies the two gods tell us about the history of Israelite religion? First, these accounts cannot be taken at face value. In style and content they bear the marks of being religious folklore. The questions then becomes, "What was the writer's purpose in identifying El and YHWH and how did he seek to accomplish this?

    The thesis put forward here is that the Elohist is seeking to fuse two distinct religions, Yahwism and Elism. As we have seen, traditions that the Elohist has taken up into his epic are associated with northern locations, Bethel, Penuel and Shechem. Yahwism, on the other hand, is strongly associated in early poetry with such southern locations as Edom, Seir, Paran and the Sinai Peninsula. Furthermore, Abram, the patriarch of Yahwism, is associated in tradition with locations in southern Palestine while Jacob/Israel sojourned in the north. Finally, Abram is explicitly called a "Hebrew" while Jacob is remembered in tradition as an "Aramean." Thus, behind the present form of these traditions, it is possible to detect two separate religious traditions that sprung from two locations, each with its own god, ethnic origin and patriarch.

    The identification of El and Yahweh was but one mechanism employed to accomplish the syncretism. This syncretism is also evident from the creation of a pseudo-kinship in which the Aramean Jacob is made the grandson of the Hebrew Abraham. Pseudo-itineraries were also used to transport both Yahweh and Abraham to Mesopotamia. The final result was a non-historical genealogy that related all of the tribes of Israel to Abram through Isaac and Jacob. The driving intention of these mechanisms was to produce a unified corporate identity called Israel from diverse social components, the most important of which was the identification of the gods El and Yahweh.

    Although the fusing of traditions have virtually obliterated El from the sources, there are two texts that demonstrate his identity vis-à-vis Yahweh's. The clearest example is found in the Song of Moses:

    Think back on the days of old,
    Think over the years, down the ages.
    Ask of your father, let him teach you;
    Of your elders, let them enlighten you:

    When Elyon gave the nations as an inheritance,
    When he divided the sons of men,
    He fixed their bounds according to the number of the sons of El;
    And Yahweh's portion is his people,
    Jacob his share of inheritance. (Deut 32:7-9)

    According to this text, when El Elyon created the various nations, he set over them one of his sons. Yahweh was set over Jacob, which clearly identifies him with one of the sons of El. Other sons or lesser gods were assigned to various nations, all of whom are subordinate to the decrees of the high god El. Yahweh and El are not here identified. Yet it appears to be one of the earliest efforts to establish a relationship between the two.

    This stage in the development of Israelite religion is also found in Psalm 29 where again the sons of El are mentioned. The Psalm begins with a vision of the heavenly court of El where the sons of El are called upon to ascribe a preeminent position among them to Yahweh:

    Pay tribute to Yahweh, you sons of El,
    Tribute to Yahweh of glory and power,
    Tribute to Yahweh of the glory of his name,
    Worship Yahweh in his sacred court. (Ps 29:1-2)

    While it is possible to interpret this text to mean that Yahweh is the highest god, the preceding text from the Song of Moses indicates that the identical term, bene 'elim ("son of El") limits his preeminence only to his "brothers" and not to El. Furthermore, many parallels to these ideas have been found in Canaanite texts in which the storm god Baal, a subordinate of the Canaanite version of the high god El, is likewise exalted for his victory over the god Mot.

    The concept in which El presides over a pantheon is also found in Psalm 82:

    El(ohim) stands in the divine assembly,
    among the gods he dispenses justice:
    No more mockery of justice,
    no more favoring the wicked!
    The weak and the orphan must have justice,
    The wretched and the destitute must be treated fairly;
    The weak and the needy must be rescued,
    They must be saved from the clutches of the wicked!
    But they are ignorant and senseless and carry on blindly,
    Undermining the very basis of early society.
    I said, You are gods,
    sons of Elyon, all of you.
    But all the same you shall die like men;
    As one man, O princes, you shall fall."
    Arise, O El(ohim), dispense justice throughout the world,
    Since no nation is excluded from your ownership.

    The Psalm presents the celestial court of El(ohim) in which El rebukes the subordinate gods for failing to see that justice was dispensed in their various domains. For their failure, these "sons of Elyon," these "gods," are condemned to die like men. The Psalm concludes with the Psalmist calling upon El himself to see to the task that the lesser gods have failed to execute. As in Deut 32:7-9, El is portrayed as the head of a pantheon who has delegated his authority to his lesser gods or "sons."

    The incorporation of Yahweh into a prominent place in El's pantheon appears to be the first earliest attempt to work out a relationship between the two religions. The Elohist's equating of the two names is more radical and more complete. Even so, certain traces of this process have been left behind. It is widely accepted that the name Yahweh is a third-masculine-singular, hiphil imperfect of the verb, hyh ("to be"). The hiphil vocalization gives the verb a causitive denotation, "he causes to be." As it stands, the verb lacks an object. What does he cause to be? The answer is found in 1 Sam 4:4 where Yahweh's full name is formally associated with his ark: "So the troops sent to Shiloh and brought away the ark of Yahweh Sabaoth, he who is seated on the cherubs." Yahweh causes to be the armies (saba oth). In what sense does he "cause them to be?" The idea here is not one of creation but of mustering them as their leader as he leads his troops into battle against the enemy as we find in this text and others. The strongest evidence that Yahweh was thought of as essentially a war god is found in Ex 15:3 where the meaning of his name is explicitly connected with his warrior attributes:

    Yahweh is a warrior,
    Yahweh is his name!

    In an effort to unite southern Yahwism with the northern worship of El, the Elohist reinterpreted the Tetragrammaton by reading it not as a hiphil stem, but as a qal, stripping the verb of its causitive nuance. Furthermore, in order to communicate the theological statement that he wished to make, he conveyed his interpretation of YHWH by relating it to a first person verbal form in the formula "I am who I am." Strictly speaking, the god's name should be shortened to 'eyeh ("I am") not to yihwah ("he is"). But the common practice of creating such popular etymologies in Israel allowed the Elohist to interpret YHWH to ultimately mean "I am who I am." In grammatical terms, he read YHWH as Yihwah (qal) rather than as Yahweh (hiphil)!

    It is clear that the Elohist radically reinterpreted the Tetragrammaton. What meaning, then, did he seek to convey with his innovations? It is often objected that any ontological interpretation is anachronistic such as one finds in the LXX. However, this objection overlooks the fact Egyptian thought reflects what might be called "ontological mysticism." In the famous "Theology of Memphis," the cosmos is portrayed as the body of the god Ptah who directs it and infuses it with life. Creation is viewed as a series of emanations in which the high gods are created first who then create the lower forms of life. We also have the following text called "Ra and the Serpent" in which the god Ra uses the same formula as we find in our text:

    Ra the Sun, The Almighty God, appeared and said:
    I Am who I Am!" (or "I am becoming what I am becoming!")
    I am Kepri the Lifegiver!
    When I--Ra the Sun--appeared,
    Life appeared.
    Every living creature appeared
    after I appeared.
    There was no heaven and no earth,
    there was no Dry land and no reptiles in Egypt.
    Then I spoke and living creatures appeared.
    I put all of them to sleep in the Nun, the primeval sea,
    until I could find a place to stand.
    When I began thinking about Egypt,
    . . . began planning everything,
    . . . began designing every creature myself,
    I had not exhaled Shu the wind,
    I had not spat Tefnut the rain,
    . . . not a single living creature had appeared.
    Then I decided:
    Let there be a multitude of living creatures,
    let there be children and grandchildren.

    One might object that such subtle theological transformations were beyond the ken of an ancient writer like the Elohist. This objection is silenced by the aforementioned Memphite Theology in which the creation story of Atum is reinterpreted by the priests of Memphis. According to the traditional tale, Atum created the world by standing on the primeval hill and then masturbating. The priests of Ptah taught that a deeper, more sublime interpretation of this story will "discover" the god Ptah "behind" Atum creating the world through divine fiat:

    There came into being as the heart and there came into being as the tongue (someone) in the form of Atum. He was Ptah, the mighty Great One who communicates life to all the gods, and to their Ka's. Through his heart and his tongue, both Horus and Thoth came to be. Thus through his heart and his tongue Ptah came to control and form the basis of all gods, all men, all animals, all reptiles--all that exists.

    The Nine [the Ennead] function as [his mouth, being] his teeth and lips which for Atum was the joining of his hand and penis which produced the semen when he masturbated. Whereas the Ennead of Atum came into being by masturbation, the Ennead is [actually] the teeth and lips in the mouth of Ptah, whose fiats brought everything into existence. First Shu and Tefnut came forth who then created the other gods of the Ennead.

    Just as all of the senses--sight, hearing and smell--inform the decisions of the heart, which are expressed by means of the mouth, so also all the gods of the Ennead were created.

    . . . Thus it happened that was said of Ptah: "He made everything by creating the gods." He is indeed Ta-tenen, who brought forth the gods, for all emanates from him--nourishment and provisions, the offerings of the gods and every good thing. Thus it was discovered and understood that he is the mightiest of the gods. Having done all these things and being pleased with his work, he rested content.

    Thus we find that the Elohist shares both his theological "method" and his conclusions with Egyptian ontological speculation. In basing his concept of YHWH on the verb "to be" he incorporated the traditional notion of El as the high god of a pantheon and Yahweh as a warrior god into the highly Egyptian inspired notion that the god was the "Existent One."

    In coming to this conclusion, it needs to be remembered that theological understanding in Israelite culture was diversified among the various sectors of the society. In the Elohist, we find a highly learned concept of YHWH that was restricted to the educated classes of the priests and the scribes. The more popular concepts of El as the high god and Yahweh as a war god no doubt persisted among the general populace and among other groups. The findings of this study of the Tetragrammaton reveals that at the time that the Elohist wrote his epic, at least three distinctive theological understandings were present in ancient Israelite society that may be summarize in the divine names El, Yahweh and Yihwah.

    VERY Interesting I think, anyone else heard about this or can refute it? Isn't El mentioned in the creation account? Is that who YHWH is talking to?

    -Dan the God Wrestler

  • ChuckD
    ChuckD

    And ever since Jacob reported this, almost every insurance policy you can buy specifically excludes Acts of God from their coverage.

  • GinnyTosken
    GinnyTosken

    I don't know enough to comment about El and Yahweh, but the mention of hips and thighs brought to mind this post I shared on H2O some time ago. I offer it for your reading enjoyment.

    Ginny

    Feet, thighs, and hands

    About a year ago, I found a dilapidated copy of The Oxford Annotated Bible at Goodwill. I have so enjoyed what I’ve learned from the notes that I decided to treat myself to the updated version, The New Oxford Annotated Bible. My Goodwill copy was last updated in 1962; this new one was updated in 1994.

    Happy with my new treasure, I began thumbing through to see what is new. The note for Exodus 4:25 caught my eye. The verse reads:

    But Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son’s foreskin, and touched Moses’ feet with it, and said, “Truly you are a bridegroom of blood to me!

    The note reads:

    Here it is assumed that the circumcision of the infant son was efficacious for Moses, who was evidently uncircumcised. Feet, a euphemism for the genitals (Isa 7.20).

    “Feet” a euphemism for genitals? This seemed a bit far-fetched. I set aside my curiosity about why Jehovah would try to kill Moses and flipped over to Isaiah 7:20:

    On that day the Lord will shave with a razor hired beyond the River—with the king of Assyria—the head and the hair of the feet, and it will take off the beard as well.

    Again the same note—“feet” is a euphemism for genitals. While it would make more sense in this context, it still seemed a stretch. I went to the Bible browser and did a search for “feet.” Look at Judges 3:24:

    After he had gone, the servants came. When they saw that the doors of the roof chamber were locked, they thought, “He must be relieving himself in the cool chamber.”

    The Hebrew for “relieving himself” is literally “covering his feet.”

    It makes one wonder what is really going on in Ruth 3:7:

    And when Boaz had eaten and drunk, and his heart was merry, he went to lie down at the end of the heap of grain. Then she came softly, and uncovered his feet and lay down.

    Hmmmm. Are there other Biblical euphemisms, I wondered? I began searching the net.

    I discovered that “thigh” is also used euphemistically.

    And Abraham said to his servant, the oldest of his house, who had charge of all that he had, “Put your hand under my thigh,”

    This means “put your hand under my testicles.” Patriarchal Semites swore binding oaths by placing a hand on each other’s private parts, a habit still common among the Arabs. The “fountain of life” was considered sacred. Words like testament, testify, and testimony still attest to the oaths sworn on testicles.

    Some scholars believe that Genesis 32:25 is euphemistic. The sinew that shrank on the hollow of Jacob’s thigh is his penis. He literally and figuratively limped away from the wrestling match.

    In some contexts, even “hand” can even be a phallic euphemism. This is from a passage in the Manual of Disciples from the Dead Sea Scrolls:

    One who walks before his neighbor naked when he does not have to do so shall be punished six months . . . one who brings his ‘hand’ out from beneath his robe when it is torn, so that his nakedness is seen, shall be punished thirty days. One who laughs foolishly, making his voice heard, shall be punished thirty days. One who brings out his left hand to gesticulate with it shall be punished ten days.

    Who ever thought Bible study could be so interesting?

    Ginny

  • philo
    philo
    Let me go, for the dawn is breaking.''

    It sounds SO Buffy, to me. God is a vampire, and long may she kick ass.

    philo

  • bboyneko 2
    bboyneko 2

    Hey Philo, here is something interesting about the origin of vampires:

    WAS DRACULA RABID?

    (from Hippocrates, March 1999)

    Dr. Juan Gomez-Alonso, a Spanish neurologist, happened to be watching the film "Dracula" when he had a sudden flash of insight: could the source of vampire legends be rooted in the classic signs of rabies infection?

    Consider what happens to a patient infected with rabies. Aggressiveness and hypersexuality are common. Twenty-five percent are prone to biting others. Because they're hypersensitive to all stimuli, rabies victims often avoid light, mirrors, and strong odors such as garlic or onions. Spasms of the facial muscles produce bared teeth, and they'll often froth at the mouth. Insomnia and night wandering are common.

    Dr. Gomez-Alonso also notes that during the years 1721-28, a major rabies epidemic among dogs and wolves broke out in Hungary -- precisely the time and place when the first vampire legends began.

  • jayhawk1
    jayhawk1

    To Genny Toskin,

    I am not a bible scholar, but regarding feet I have this to say.

    Jesus washed the feet of his apostles. Does this mean he washed their genitals instead?

    "Hand me that whiskey, I need to consult the spirit."-J.F. Rutherford

  • GinnyTosken
    GinnyTosken

    Jayhawk,

    Neither am I a Bible scholar; I just read footnotes.

    I don't know if "feet" has the same connotation in the New Testament as the Old. I have seen no footnotes suggesting that feet washing meant anything other than a humble act after dusty travels. Perhaps the meaning depends on context.

    Ginny

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Hello, dearest BBoy... and may you have peace!

    Just a couple of FYI's, if you will permit me:

    1. "El" is not a name; it is the Hebrew word for "God" (i.e., Beth-El = House of God; Israel = Contender with God; Joel, pronounced Yah-el = JAH is God, etc.) In the event my Father's name has actually been used in these instances, it would have been Beth-JAH, Isra-JAH, JAH-El, etc. God... and JAH... are one and the same, as long as the individual(s) referencing the matter believe it so. "God" COULD be, however, to some, Buddha, Zeus, etc. When the word is "El", however, that is in direct relation to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, MY God, my Father... and the Father of my Lord and my brothers.. JAH... OF ARMIES.

    2. The nation of Israel is CALLED 'Israel', after the man Jacob, whose name was CHANGED to "Isra-El" after he wrestled with JAH's angel. Jacob would not LET the angel go until he had been blessed; since the angel was sent by JAH, Jacob was, in essence wrestling with JAH... and it was of JAH that he demanded a blessing. He received the blessing... his 'seed', rather than his brother Esau's (which would have sufficed, too), became the 'nation' blessed by God/JAH due to his promise to Abraham.

    3. The reason that it was Jacob's thigh and hip that were affected is because that is the 'pivot' point of a man's physical strength. Yes, upper body strength is good and great, but a man with weak legs... or even perhaps lame... was considered 'afflicted' by God. A man without the use of his arms could fend fairly well for himself; he was at least 'mobile'; however, a man lame in legs was dependent... and unfortunately considered a burden. Jacob, while he indeed received a blessing... also received an affliction, a REMINDER of his weak flesh, although he had presumed to content with God... as his new name and hip/thigh... suggested. He was not inflicted entirely, nor did he need to become dependent, but he was constantly reminded of what my Father COULD have done to him, for his presumptuousness, had He so desired. Jacob was spared... because what he asked for... indeed demanded... is what we should ALL desire: to be blessed by God.

    4. In your 'Sumerian' account of creation, where Ra is 'the Sun', in TRUTH, this 'fable' was taken from the truth of my Father being the LIGHT. Since in the physical world the only true 'source' of light is the sun, the account was... bastardized to include the physical features of creation (sun, wind, rain, etc.) due to the decrease and LACK of 'spirituality' among mankind at the time. They KNEW there were 'godlike' beings... but they could no longer explain them SPIRITUALLY... because by now, such beings could only be SEEN spiritually. Since the people had left off 'seeing' that which is spiritual, they combined the spiritual... which they had heard from previous generations... with the physical... which they could see with their own eyes and experience with the other 'senses' of the flesh (sight, touch, taste, smell and sound - that which makes things 'real'... to the physical flesh).

    Initially, there was no division between flesh from the dust... and flesh from the spirit realm. Adam and Eve, however, when ejected from Eden, were among the last to see it of their time. Both Cain and Abel could SEE it, but could not enter into it. And over time, as man became MORE physical... and less spiritual... their ability to see it, faded away altogether. However, before this, while Abel continued to have the FAITH born of love, to see it, up until his very death, his brother Cain lacked the LOVE to have the FAITH to see it. This is what caused the division between the two: Abel had faith and love, and so could 'see' and 'hear' what was acceptable to my Father... and do it. Cain, though, because of his LACK of LOVE, could not possess the faith to see it. He could, though, still HEAR.

    And unfortunately, MOST of what Cain heard... was discipline... which he 'belittled'. Abel heard praise and acceptance, because his sacrifices WERE acceptable, because WELCOMED discipline... listened and obeyed. Cain... mostly heard were he needed to improve, rather than where he was being pleasing, and so failed to value the discipline, and thus failed to LISTEN to the discipline and ultimately to OBEY it. After awhile, rather than be angry at JAH who GAVE such discipline, Cain grew angry at Abel. And although JAH saw this and tried to WARN Cain... and discipline him... Cain again, failed to obey... which resulted in his sin... killing his brother.

    All 'fables' and 'myths' have SOME modicum of resemblance and similarity, because they all 'originated' from the same point, the truth. But, as I said, it is earthling man's inability to any longer 'see' and 'hear' spiritually that has resulted in the truth being bastardized, distorted, misstated, misrendered and misinterpreted. But it does NOT have to be that way. There IS a TRUTH... a 'real' one... and he is 'real' in that he is spiritual and 'lives forever and ever', for he is of the realm that exists 'forever and ever'... rather this physical one, the features of which come and go.

    His name is JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH (JAH saves; chosen/anointed of JAH), and he is the Son of the TRUE God, the Holy One of Israel, JAH OF ARMIES... and my Lord. It is he that said, "I am the Way... and the Truth... and the Life." And it is he that also said:

    "You are searching the scriptures, because you THINK
    that by means of THEM you will have everlasting life.
    And these are the very ones that bear witnness about
    ME... and yet, you do not want to come to ME... that
    you may have life."

    So, I promise you, BBoy... you can read all the books you want on any subject you wish, written by anyone who has ever lived on this earth. And yet, you will not find the knowledge of God. For such knowledge exists IN only One... and is only granted to us... THROUGH that One. I promise you. Thus, it is true that 'to the making of many books there is no end and much devotion to them 'is wearisome to the flesh'. Indeed, with all of the writing and literature that has been penned... which as the Truth? I say to you, BBoy... including the "Bible"... none of them. For neither my Lord... what he is, what he did nor what he will yet do... can be bound and contain in volumes of paper and ink... no matter HOW long one writes, even to eternity.

    Does that mean stop reading? By no means... there is information to be had. However, it is not the knowledge of God... the KNOWING of God... and being KNOWN by Him. I read; I LOVE to read. But not to 'find' God or be found BY Him. For that, I go to the 'source'... God Himself, by going to the One whom He 'appointed'... His Son... my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH. For no matter HOW many books are written, how many 'towers' are built, how many 'roads' are travelled, and how long one searches... NO ONE can come to the Father... except THROUGH that One.

    I hope this helps and I again bid you peace.

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • Francois
    Francois

    Here is some additional conceptual data:

    1. Yahweh was the god of the southern Palestinian tribes, who associated this concept of deity with Mount Horeb, the Sinai volcano. Yahweh was merely one of the hundreds and thousands of nature gods which held the attention and claimed the worship of the Semitic tribes and peoples.
    2. El Elyon. For centuries this doctrine of Deity persisted in various versions but was generally connoted by the term El Elyon, the Most High God of heaven. Many Semites, including the immediate descendants of Abraham, at various times worshiped both Yahweh and El Elyon.
    3. El Shaddai. It is difficult to explain what El Shaddai stood for. This idea of God was a composite derived from the teachings of Amenemope's Book of Wisdom modified by Ikhnaton's doctrine of Aton and further influenced by Melchizedek's teachings embodied in the concept of El Elyon. But as the concept of El Shaddai permeated the Hebrew mind, it became thoroughly colored with the Yahweh beliefs of the desert.
    One of the dominant ideas of the religion of this era was the Egyptian concept of divine Providence, the teaching that material prosperity was a reward for serving El Shaddai.
    4. El. Amid all this confusion of terminology and haziness of concept, many devout believers sincerely endeavored to worship all of these evolving ideas of divinity, and there grew up the practice of referring to this composite Deity as El. And this term included still other of the Bedouin nature gods.
    5. Elohim. In Kish and Ur there long persisted Sumerian-Chaldean groups who taught a three-in-one God. This doctrine was carried to Egypt, where this Trinity was worshiped under the name of Elohim, or in the singular as Eloah. The philosophic circles of Egypt and later Alexandrian teachers of Hebraic extraction taught this unity of pluralistic Gods. But the concept of the trinitarian Elohim never became a real part of Hebrew theology until after they had come under the political influence of the Babylonians.

    NOTE TO GOVERNING BODY: You've been challenged to a debate, boys. Dont you have ANY balls?

  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    First of all, Francois is spouting a lot of unproven speculation that one runs across at a forgettable web site. El and Yahweh are differing words for the One True God. All of God's names reveal an aspect of His nature. Abram knew Him as El Shaddai, (I am what I am) and His name was revealed to Moses, 'Asher Iyeh Asher', later to be known as 'Yahweh' or 'Jehovah', which are transliterations.
    This is not surprising when we see that the ancients had El or El Yon as their original deity, then like the Sumerians, added many lesser 'gods' since mankind had such trouble worshipping a God that they couldn't see!
    On to your question:
    This is an appearance by the Word, Logos, as a 'theophany' of God. Jesus, as the God the Son is also believed responsible for the 'walking in the garden, calling out to Adam and Eve', the death of the Philistines in their encampment, the various appearances to characters in the Bible as 'Angel of the Lord' and some believe he is also 'Michael' in Revelation, but they do NOT deny His deity as JWs do. Martin Luther believed this was so.
    As you probably know, we cannot see God in all His glory or it would kill us. When Christ returns in full glory, the second advent will be obvious and not some mystical event that only a select few will know of.
    Later,
    Rex

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