A New Nail in "FRIEND"'s COFFIN ;-)

by Focus 20 Replies latest jw friends

  • Focus
    Focus

    I know that honest-hearted ones here are thoroughly sick of Friend's ill-disguised, legalistic, nitpicking, ground-shifting, form-over-substancing, necrophilia-inducing attempt to deny that the setup and conduct of the Watchtower Society serves excellently to encourage pedophilia... (of course, like all apologetics claim, he is not defending the cult, only attacking the poor argument of the opposer - LOL! LOL! LOL!)

    Now, we have seen a lot of what Friend has to say.. But one often learns more by what certain types of people do NOT say!

    Singularly, Friend has failed to produce any literature emanating from the Society counselling the victim of child abuse by a JW to whistle blow to the police or other secular authorities. How odd! Think how that would serve to bolster his case, or damage mine (he tries to draw some distinction between these - doubtless he has contempt for the intelligence of his readership)!

    Now, Friend was able in
    >>> http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=3035&page=1&site=3
    to produce counsel (g93 3/8 10) to whistle-blow when the perpetrator of the assault was in all likelihood (given context - a JW raped) not a JW!

    Strange then that he couldn't produce even one quote that would support his contention when the perp was a JW... if not from an official WTS publication, then from an official "letter to elders" where one might expect to find counsel of this sort that the WTS did not want to make too public (denying as it has been that there is any sort of pedophile trouble here - I have a dozen quotes where it attacks the clergy of Christendom for pedophilia!).

    It is, after all and as Friend demonstrated above, the sort of area on which the WTBTS does express opinions! So - why no mention by him? Hmmm... I thought. There's possibly something there.

    So I asked Prominent Bethelite to scan documents that he has (and which, given his stated position, Friend certainly has access to).

    And now we see why Friend did not produce evidence directly supporting his claim (and instead engaged in all variety of legalese and red-herringDOM) - because there is material out there BUT NOT ON THE OFFICIAL CD utterly damaging to his case.

    All dated quotes are from the Society's letters "TO ALL BODIES OF ELDERS IN THE UNITED STATES" (the date is the date on the letter - letters in other countries will differ slightly, even in date) - strictly not for the rank and file!

    Firstly - and I quote the PB - "there is nothing at all in any of the letters I read to suggest that the victim of child-abuse by a JW should be counselled to report the incident, except - and this is reading between the lines and giving the WTBTS the benefit of the doubt - if the law compels it".

    Seeing justice meted out to the perpetrator is often the first stage of "healing", that is indeed a telling omission!

    Now, having seen WHAT IS NOT THERE, let us see what IS THERE:

    March 23, 1992
    If a current case of child abuse comes to light in your congregation, elders should do what they can to protect children from further abuse. (See 'Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock' page 93.) How might this be accomplished? In the Addendum presented at the Kingdom Ministry School, direction was given that when elders receive reports of physical or sexual abuse of a child, they should contact the Society immediately for legal advice. Thereafter, if it is established that a member of the congregation is guilty of sexually abusing a child, a judicial committee would meet with this one, following theocratic procedures. If the person is not repentant over the gross sin, disfellowshipping action would be warranted. Additionally, elders can encourage parents to review the January 22, 1985, issue of Awake! which provides suggestions on what they can do to protect their children from sexual abuse by anyone, inside or outside the family . -See also Awake! issues of June 22, 1982, and December 22, 1986

    My comment: And none of the voluminous material referred to here contains counsel for the victim to whistle-blow to secular authorities - WHY NOT? The message is clear, except to the Friend Class!]

    February 3, 1993
    It is also a personal decision if the alleged victim chooses to report such accusations to the secular authorities.
    Elders should encourage the sufferer to use discretion if that one chooses to confide in a mature friend. They can help him to see that the matter should not be indiscriminantly discussed in the congregation.

    My comment: Sure, we get the message... SSSSSSSHHHHHH And there lies the nub.

    August 1, 1995
    Many states make it mandatory that elders report an accusation to the proper authorities but other states do not. In those states where such is required, oftentimes the parent, the guardian, or the accused person himself can do the reporting. In this way the confidentiality protected by ecclesiastical privilege is not violated.

    My comment: Simply complying with "superior authorities" requirements - no concession at all here. And no counselling to whistle-blow on the part of the victim at all, where the law does not force it! The wording is very telling and bears re-reading. They could have said so much here. THEY DID NOT.

    March 14, 1997
    What should elders do when a former child molester moves to another congregation? .. The secretary should write on behalf of the elders to the new congregation's body of elders and outline this publisher's background and what the elders in the old congregation have been doing to assist him. Any needed cautions should be provided to the new congregation's body of elders. This letter should not be read to or discussed with the congregation.. It may be possible that some who were guilty of child molestation were or are now serving as elders, ministerial servants, or regular or special pioneers. Others may have been guilty of child molestation before they were baptized. The bodies of elders should not query individuals.. this information [re the abuse] is not to be made available to those not involved.. Elders should not discuss this information [re the letter itself] with others.

    My comment: It speaks for itself. SSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHH is implied.

    July 20, 1998
    In addition, court officials and lawyers will hold responsible any organization that knowingly appoints former child abusers to positions of trust, if one of these, thereafter, commits a further act of child abuse. This could result in costly lawsuits, involving dedicated funds that should be used to further the Kingdom work. So, legal considerations must also be weighed

    My comment: Sure, we now see what is really important - the concluding consideration - $$$$$ to WTBTS!

    A most telling omission then... no wonder Friend steered so well clear of this! There simply had to be a reason. Thanks, PB!

    In conclusion, and somewhat less significantly, I am reminded of how Friend made his Nuremberg-style apologia for the Society by claiming how he could find no trace of evidence in S-2 forms of congregation-level troubles...

    Friend somehow also forgot the Society's track record on these sorts of things (paper-trails):

    (1) For example, during the Kingdom Ministry Schools held in Nov/Dec '94 in the U.S., elders were told to handwrite, word for word, the following things relating to the S77/S79 forms (judicial committees use these to report disfellowshipings to Brooklyn) in their 'Pay Attention To Yourselves And To All The Flock' booklets:
    Six Expressions That Should Not Be Used on S77 and S79 Forms
    1. Anything alluding to or naming one of the Society's attorneys
    2. Any mention of the Legal Department
    3. Any comments referring to direction from the Society
    4. Any comments mentioning anyone other than the committee itself as a possible influence in the decision reached
    5. Any comments that might suggest to someone with a critical eye that the committee did not reach its decision on its own but, instead, somehow yielded to the influence of an outside party
    6. Any comments indicating that the elders mishandled the case or committed any error in the investigation or the judicial committee process.

    (2) These refer to DF'ing matters:
    July 1, 1989
    Be Extremely Careful with Written Material .. avoid sending .. any kind of correspondence .. Nothing should be put in writing .. without specific direction from the Society. The rules and procedures of Jehovah's Witnesses do not require such written disclosures.. should be informed orally .. inform him orally .. inform him by telephone.. Guard the Use of Your Tongue!

    No comment needed: makes Friend's vaunted reliance on lack of written evidence rather revealing of whether the "r" is working reliably on my keyboard, eh, F iend?

    And, it is nothing personal. I realize you have your job to do. And so do I. An unimportant difference might be that you (perhaps) get paid to do it, and I definitely do not.

    Just so we understand each other. You may have fooled some of them. You haven't fooled all of them. UncleBruce and Jan.H. send their love too from H2O - but what Prominent Bethelite was better still

    --
    Focus
    ("Righteous Requirements" Class)

  • Kismet
    Kismet

    What is it with you? Everything you do has STALKER written all over it. You get a hard on for one person and you harass, follow, cross post about, etc ad nauseum.

    Focus, "I know that honest-hearted ones here are thoroughly sick of your ill-disguised, legalistic, nitpicking, form-over-substancing, necrophilia-inducing attempt" that does nothing more than promote yourself and satisfy your self aggrandizing desires. Oh I forgot excessively verbiose rantings.

    Why else would you feel the need to start new thread after thread that serve no good except to promote an alleged victory over a word definition or other such stupid claims of victory. Trying to bring glory to yourself??

    You are more interested in making sure the whole world sees how "brilliant" you supposedly are than in trying to help others see the need to 'get out of her.' You'd do more good with presenting your research without the childish attempts to garnish attention to yourself. You have been asked this over and over, why not just make your own site and stop polluting everyone else boards?

    I don't know maybe you were abandoned as a child which is why you crave so much attention. But get over yourself.

    I for one am comletely sick and tired of seeing you come on to decent discussion boards only to spam them with your egocentric rantings. It's people like you that would drive me back to the Witnesses rather than wanting to avoid them.

    It is your approach that will keep people in the Org when they see the vile stupidity shown by the likes of you on the internet. "Oh the Society must be right about what happens when someone leaves the Truth.. look at what happened to that Focus guy"

    Kismet

    PS - and while you are at it, why don't you quit with the PB/Danielle/Focus idiocy. You as much as admitted on the old H20 board that you were PB. Now you add a female persona.. are we getting confused about ourselves Focus???

  • Focus
    Focus

    Kismet wrote immediately above:
    > What is it with you? Everything you do has STALKER written all over it.

    Please check the definition of Stalker. "Friend" started it. I have never posted against him before the Child Abuse thread a couple of days ago. Are you confused?

    > You get a hard on for one person and you harass, follow, cross post about, etc ad nauseum.

    <b>Perhaps the legalistic defence of a Society whose structure and practices encourage child abuse and attracts pedophiles is a matter of little concern to you?</b>

    >excessively verbiose rantings.

    "verbiose"

    An easy to make mistake (no criticism there). But an uncommon one. Thanks! It explains a few things about your stand.

    >Why else would you feel the need to start new thread after thread that serve no good

    Perhaps had you read them more carefully you would have understood. For one, Friend - realizing the bankruptcy of his position, or perhaps just responding to off-focus comments from others - has ground-shifted this discussion from whether the victim is counselled (by WTS or elders) to whistle-blow to whether elders are required to so do. The latter is an interesting question, without a simple answer - but is utterly different and confusing to the material in the position. It deserves a new thread, where advice to elders is discussed. This thread.

    > except to promote an alleged victory over a word definition or other such stupid claims of victory. Trying to bring glory to yourself??

    No. But exposing your poor reading comprehension, possibly.

    It was nothing about a "word defintion". The thrust was readily understood by half a dozen participants.

    [Insults snipped]

    >You have been asked this over and over, why not just make your own site and stop polluting everyone else boards?

    I have been asked this "over and over"? Kindly give some examples... as to "polluting everyone else boards", that didn't seem to be the impression I got from Tina, JT, waiting.

    Of course others realize this poster has history with me. What name did you post at in H2O, Kismet?

    >I don't know maybe you were abandoned as a child which is why you crave so much attention. But get over yourself.

    Thanks for that. Your compassion for people abandoned as children shows, doesn't it? Hopefully you don't have any children to "pollute" with such venom?

    >I for one am comletely sick and tired of seeing you come on to decent discussion boards only to spam them
    > with your egocentric rantings. It's people like you that would drive me back to the Witnesses rather than wanting to avoid them.

    LOL! Who is being childish now!!!

    >It is your approach that will keep people in the Org when they see the vile stupidity shown by the likes of you on the internet.

    Not one example of stupidity cited, incidentally. I wonder why not.

    >"Oh the Society must be right about what happens when someone leaves the Truth.. look at what happened to that Focus guy"

    Perhaps he was taught to hate by the PROFESSIONALS AT HATING (the Watchtowerites)?

    >Kismet

    Bad kismet, it would appear...

    >why don't you quit with the PB/Danielle/Focus idiocy.

    PB = Danielle = Danie11e <> Focus

    Oh, and none of the above is either CvT or Tom Talley. So, I have nothing to quit. Are you addressing the wrong critter?

    > You as much as admitted on the old H20 board that you were PB.

    Oh, yeah? Where? I'd love to see that! Is it your reading skills again?

    > Now you add a female persona.. are we getting confused about ourselves Focus???

    Do I see that you hate transsexuals as well as abandoned kids? Any more on your hate list? I so love Lists too!

    --
    Focus

    Here is much of the material that I have helped come into existence.

    http://www.freeminds.org/history/part1.htm
    http://www1.tip.nl/~t661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm
    http://localsonly.wilmington.net/jmalik/TheList.zip
    http://www.concordance.com/watchtower.htm
    http://www.intrex.net/tallyman/the_list.html
    http://www.3dom.freeserve.co.uk/main.htm

    I've shown you mine, so will you show me your's?

    --
    Focus
    (Laughing His Socks Off! Class)

    Edited by - Focus on 4 March 2001 22:25:23

  • ianao
    ianao

    Focus:

    I for one enjoy your posts. It's much better to see an argument through rather than to have the main idea sidelined with shoddy tactics.

  • Xandit
    Xandit

    Hey Kismet, Focus' parents put him/her/it out for the wolves but the wolves didn't have the stomach for it.

  • Kismet
    Kismet

    Yep typical Focus.

    Attack spelling, word usage anything to make you look oh so intelligent.

    It was not Friend who was starting new threads at H20 only to pormote/link to your postings wherein you brag of your alleged victories over Friend. How do you define STALKER. (Look in mirror for picture)

    You couldn't resist one last self promoting plug for yourself could you

    Here is much of the material that I have helped come into existence.

    The only anger (not hatred) I carry is for those that care more about stroking their own ego than about how their actions affect others. Yes that includes those you are thinking of in Brooklyn. But you are no different. You use their tactics, in fact you brag of it at times. You wallow in self pity in that "they taught you how to hate". I ask you, what are you doing then to stop the hating? All you are doing is trying to get others to become as hateful as you. Hate is destructive. Those who hate are destructive usually to themselves and innocents around them and rarely to those to whom the hatred is targetted.

    I am all for encouraging people to leave the Org, but not by turning them into hate filled individuals which is what you are seeming to try to accomplish.

    Kismet - who for the record is a Big Brother and who volunteers at and sits on the Board of a shelter for men (transvestites and transexuals included)dying of AIDS. (only mentioned to disprove your allegations and insulting innuendo)

    As far as the Danielle=PB=Focus you might recall one of your early tirades against the Moderators at H20. You were upset because moderator 101 revealed your (Focus) identity as being Prominent bethelite. You were demanding his removal as moderator for betraying this to the Board. If it wasn't true than you were using a lie to get rid of a thorn in your side? So either you are Prominent Bethelite or you are a self serving liar. Which is it?

    Edited by - Kismet on 4 March 2001 23:5:57

    Edited by - Kismet on 4 March 2001 23:25:20

  • Kismet
    Kismet

    Xandit

    I personally don't find that kind of post necessary or helpful. I did not post this to become a flame war against Focus nor for people to rally around in support of my post.

    It was more of a plea for him to cease and desist in his destructive approach to things and get him to realize how he is perceived by many Jw's and ex-JW's.

    I am hoping that if he realizes the potential damage he is doing to those thinking of leaving the ORg and to those who are waffling as to their position he might reconsider his approach.

    He does have great research at his disposal but if he worried less about himself and his own ego and FOCUSSED more on why he is doing these things (unless of course that is why he is doing these things) then he might accomplish a greater good.

    Thanks for the attempted support.

    Kismet

  • Xandit
    Xandit

    Kismet you need to climb down off your high horse and live in the real world. If you think you're going to reach Focus with any kind of reasoned appeal, you are delusional. This has been going on for years.

  • ianao
    ianao

    Kismet:

    I think Focus may be protecting his ego a bit, but I think that's OK when an 'apologist' attempts to distract from the primary argument with personal attacks him/her self. If Focus were to ignore the personal attacks, than the 'apologist' would ridicule him for not completing the argument.

    I personally think he's very thorough.
    (A bit of a smart arse, but aren't we all?)

  • TMS
    TMS

    Dear "Focus":

    A careful, reasoned, polite, non-inflamatory post would indeed be more persuasive.

    Perhaps, a little more poodle. less rottweiler.

    Flooding the board with numerous mean-spirited threads, dumping reams of quotes in a single post strikes one as a "rule or ruin" mentality.

    Would a kinder, gentler "Focus" be too much to ask?

    TMS

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