Pentateuch

by Pippa 35 Replies latest jw friends

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Not to mention that the language itself is wholly inconsistent with such an early datation. We know a great deal about the history of West Semitic languages thanks to inscriptions and other epigraphic finds. If "Moses" wrote the Pentateuch, the language would have been closer to Ugaritic or the Canaanite found in the Tell el-Amarna tablets -- somewhat like Chaucer compared to our modern English. Rather, the language is much closer to the Hebrew of 1-2 Samuel (in the case of the some of the patriarchical narratives) or Jeremiah or Ezekiel (in the case of the material assigned to D and P, respectively). The poetry of Exodus 15 is clearly more archaic than that of the prose, but it is still later than the putative era of "Moses" (as the poem looks back on the "conquest" of Canaan as a past event). In fact, the author of the prose frame into which the poem is embedded misconstrued the yiqtol preterite tense forms in the passages in Exodus 15 referring to the "conquest", interpreting them as referring to the future (thereby allowing him to put the poem on the lips of Moses prior to the conquest). This is because the use of this inflected form for the preterite, found at Ugarit and in the Tell el-Amarna tablets, died out in classical biblical Hebrew, where yiqtol came to only be used with imperfect and jussive meaning. The preterite use of wayyiqtol is even later (a form that was the result of grammaticalization), and this is the form that predominates in P, such as in the creation account in Genesis 1. This same evidence persuades me against the view that the Pentuateuch was substantially written in the Hellenistic era, as the language does not seem to be that late (i.e. roughly contemporaneous with Daniel and some of the Hebrew Dead Sea Scroll compositions), although it is clear that the redactions (even substantive ones) continued well into that period and later. I think the notion of a rolling corpus (as seen in Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Zechariah, 1 Enoch, Mathew, etc.) with respect to the Pentateuch may better explain the history of the work than the classic model of the Documentary Hypothesis. I recall seeing the website of a doctoral student (I think) who was pursuing such an analysis, but I didn't take down the URL.

    The methodology of determining the sources of the Pentateuch is not much different than that found throughout literary criticism in assessing the integrity and authorship of various works, whether in Greco-Roman classics, the early Jewish/Christian pseudopigrapha, the early church fathers, the Pseudo-Clementine literature, Shakespeare, etc. In another thread, I listed out the many criteria and features that co-occur in P and set off this material as distinct in the Pentateuch, but I cannot find that thread right now. One may similarly compare that with, say, the stylistic criteria listed in Milton Brown's 1964 JBL article on the style of Pseudo-Ignatius, the later hand who interpolated material and whole epistles into the corpus of the epistles of Ignatius.

  • jaguarbass
    jaguarbass

    Hello Primate Dave, I just ordered Friedmans book who wrote the bible on your recomendation,

    from Amazon. 6$ I have heard these theorys many times before now I will have this book

    documenting them in my collection.

  • PrimateDave
    PrimateDave

    Excellent move, Jaguarbass. I think you will enjoy reading it. Friedman's book is by no means the final word on this subject. However, his introduction to the search for Biblical authors is easily understood and gives the lay person (like you and me) an idea of what the fuss is all about. I loaned out my copy to a friend I haven't seen in a while, so I may have to order another one myself.

    Thanks for that informative post, Leolaia.

  • Mad Dawg
    Mad Dawg

    Nark said:

    There is a lot of worn-out caricature and fallacy (of the 'strawman' or 'red herring' types in particular) in your argument, plus completely irrelevant issues -- such as about π...

    My point about π was to point out the nature of arguments for the JEDP theory. Whether the supposed contradictions involve science, sociology, or the text themselves, the point is the same – most are manufactured when a plain reading clears up the issue.

    for instance the dispositions of the so-called "Covenant code" in Exodus 20:22--23:19 differ from those in other parts of the Torah on a lot of topics (sacrifices and priesthood, 20:24f, compare Deuteronomy 12:5; slavery 21:1ff, compare Leviticus 25, etc.).

    {Exodus 20:24} An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.

    {Deut 12:5} But unto the place which the LORD your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put his name here, [even] unto his habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come:

    OK, so what is the problem here? Please be more specific.

    Of course they can be reconciled -- that's what much of Jewish interpretation has been about in the past 2,000 + years.

    And quite easily at that. So what is the necessity of the JEDP theory?

    But the very difficulty bears the mark of legislations pertaining to and arising from different historical, economical, political contexts. Why would a single "lawmaker" working almost abstractly (not even mentioning divine inspiration) in a unique and rather constraint-free context (the Sinai desert) come up with such complexity?

    This is a theological question. To answer it you would have to acknowledge God as the author.

    The real problem is that very little in the Torah makes sense in a 2nd-millenium-BC context, …

    Why not?

    …while most of it is perfectly at home in a period running from the Assyrian to the Persian empires.

    You have your cause and effect backwards. Society did not give rise to new writings, the writings gave rise to a new society. The same is true of the US constitution. Using your logic, it could not have been written in 1786 because there were no democracies in the world at that time… it must have been written in the 20 th century where it would be perfectly at home.

    Leo said:

    Not to mention that the language itself is wholly inconsistent with such an early datation. We know a great deal about the history of West Semitic languages thanks to inscriptions and other epigraphic finds. If "Moses" wrote the Pentateuch, the language would have been closer to Ugaritic or the Canaanite found in the Tell el-Amarna tablets -- somewhat like Chaucer compared to our modern English. Rather, the language is much closer to the Hebrew of 1-2 Samuel (in the case of the some of the patriarchical narratives) or Jeremiah or Ezekiel (in the case of the material assigned to D and P, respectively).

    Which is what we would expect to find if Moses wrote in an earlier language that was later translated into Hebrew. The above doesn’t necessarily mean that the original was written later, but could easily mean that it was translated later.

    The poetry of Exodus 15 is clearly more archaic than that of the prose,

    If Shakespeare were re-written in modern English, his poems would still reflect the older structure they were written in while the prose would appear more modern.

    In fact, the author of the prose frame into which the poem is embedded misconstrued…

    What was he working from that he miscontrued? Do you have a copy of it? Please define:

    Ø yiqtol preterite tense forms

    Ø preterite use of wayyiqtol

    The methodology of determining the sources of the Pentateuch is not much different than that found throughout literary criticism in assessing the integrity and authorship of …

    Winnie the Pooh:

    Doublets occur. We may mention briefly the two accounts of meetings with a Heffalump (W 5; H 3). and two accounts of the building of a house.(H 1; 9), variously connected with Eeyore and with Owl. An excellent example of the redactor's method in intertwining his sources may be seen in the account of Pooh's being stuck in the entrance to Rabbit's house (W 2. 24). When Pooh realizes he is stuck, according to the first source:

    'Oh, help!', said Pooh. 'I'd better go back.'

    But according to the second source:

    'Oh, bother!', said Pooh. 'I shall have to go on.'

    The redactor has simply set down these two contradictory statements side by side, and then has attempted to harmonize them by his own conflation:

    'I can't do either!', said Pooh. 'Oh, help and bother!

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Hi Mad Dawg,

    Thank you for your reply.

    Only internal contradictions can be relevant to the issue of authorship (not that any and all contradictions are, of course). I for one wouldn't expect an ancient book to agree with modern (or foreign) science. If you do, this is because you feel it is required by a certain (narrow) view of "divine inspiration" or "inerrancy" -- not because you assume the book to be a one-man-work.

    Of course, if (1) the book presents itself as a one-man-work and (2) you believe it is inerrant in a very strict sense that may close the discussion as far as you are concerned. But this is not quite the case with the Torah. There are stories about Moses, and laws introduced as given by Yhwh through Moses, but a great part of the material (the entire book of Genesis to start with) doesn't relate itself to Moses at all. The claim of Mosaic authorship of the whole Torah is basically traditional, although the tradition may be partly echoed in other parts of (your canon of) scripture.

    As to the contradictions between the "Covenant code" and other parts of the Torah (which I offered only as an example; an exhaustive list would be... exhausting): according to Exodus 20, sacrifices are to be offered in a number of "holy places" in the land, following a priestly ritual which has little to do with Leviticus rules; in Deuteronomy 12, there is only one valid place of sacrifice for the entire land (which is the point of Josiah's "reform", 2 Kings 22--23). I suppose you got the point about slavery since you didn't ask: is the slave freed after 6 years or service? or in the sabbatical year (which doesn't necessarily coincide)? or at the start of the Jubilee year every 50 years? Of course you may easily answer, "whichever comes first" -- but no text does. Iow, we have different legislations, and reconciling them (or not) is a matter of interpretation. Would that happen with a one-man-work?

    And that imo has nothing to do with theology. If you insist on introducing God into the equation, I could very well imagine that the same God inspired a number of different "laws" in different historical, political, economical contexts. But I am at pain figuring why he would have done so in one (Sinai) context. Unless he mysteriously wanted to make a one-man-work look like something else.

    The question of historical context is not only a matter of names (personal, ethnical names and toponyms). For instance, the basic structure, form, and even wording of Deuteronomy have often been shown to be dependent on those of Assyrian treaties -- where the vassal must serve and love the suzerain exclusively under the penalty of specific curses. This points to a specific political situation of the late davidic kings.

    About the linguistical problems, I think you misunderstood your source; I looked up your first link after I replied to you, and it doesn't speak of translation but transliteration -- different characters but basically the same language -- of course the language itself would have evolved in the meantime, But for the rewriting to account for all the anachronisms in the extant form of a Mosaic Torah you would have to admit that it was a rather "free" and thorough rewriting -- nothing like scribal copy. Iow, the more such a theory would explain, the more it would ruin its basic assumption: that we are actually reading Moses' work.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Which is what we would expect to find if Moses wrote in an earlier language that was later translated into Hebrew. The above doesn’t necessarily mean that the original was written later, but could easily mean that it was translated later.

    And your evidence for translation is....? The supposition of translation arises because it can potentially harmonize the overwhelming linguistic facts with the pre-existing claim of Mosiac authorship; it does not follow out of its own accord from a consideration of the text. What in the text itself points specifically to composition in the fifteenth, fourteenth, or thirteenth centuries BC? Without a relevant basis for substantiating the claim of translation, your argument is little more than special pleading.

    If Shakespeare were re-written in modern English, his poems would still reflect the older structure they were written in while the prose would appear more modern.

    The point I was making was that, unlike Shakespeare, the author of the prose was much later than the author of the poem because the language had changed in the interim. This is not a case of updating the language subsequent to authorship -- the change in the later occurred before the prose was even written because of the way the author used the older poem in the narrative.

    Please define: Ø yiqtol preterite tense forms Ø preterite use of wayyiqtol

    Really briefly, yiqtol is a form of the verb (in this case, the verb for "to kill") in Hebrew and also in West Semitic; it usually has imperfect meaning and could refer to the future or subjunctive. The preterite (past tense) is usually the qatal form but in later Hebrew there developed an affixed form wayyiqtol (literally, "and yiqtol") which have similar past or preterite meaning. Now originally there was a preterite yiqtol without any imperfect (such as interative or durative) meaning that was very common for the preterite, but it was distinguished from the imperfect IIRC by a following vowel, which dropped out of West Semitic (it can be found in Ugaritic). Anyway, simple preterite yiqtol is an archaism in biblical Hebrew as it dropped out of common speech and is largely found in very old poetry (such as the Song of the Sea in Exodus 15 or the Song of Deborah in Judges 5) or in texts imitative of it. Mark S. Smith's book The Origins of the Waw-Consecutive (published in 1991) traces the linguistic development from Late Bronze Age West Semitic (in Ugaritic and Amarna-era Canaanite) to much later biblical Hebrew.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    One analogy to the redactional process presumed by the Documentary Hypothesis is the Diatessaron gospel harmony produced by Tatian in c. AD 170-180. He produced a conflate narrative drawing on Matthew (M), Mark (Mk), Luke (L), and John (J), sources which have their own individual style and characteristics (any reader of the gospels can notice the differences between John and the synoptic gospels). The Diatessaron exhibits precisely the kind of literary phenomena that the DH presumes for the Pentateuch. For instance, the nativity account starts off following the account in Luke and then, with a brief "After this...", switches to the nativity story from Matthew of the magi and the flight into Egypt (resulting in such contradictions as the magi coming to Bethlehem after Mary had already left Bethlehem for Nazareth). This is much like the Pentateuch starting off with P's creation account in Genesis 1 which is followed simply by the account in J in ch. 2, with little effort to harmonize them. In many cases, parallel accounts from different gospels are presented as doublets whereas in other cases, they are creatively integrated together. One example of the latter is the story of Jesus stilling the Sea of Galilee, which splices together material from Matthew, Luke, and Mark. This is parallel to the weaving together of the two Flood accounts from P and J in Genesis. The story of Jesus' baptism combines the accounts from all four gospels. In the case of the selection of the twelve apostles, the Diatessaron first follows the account in Luke and then the version from Mark is presented as repetition or resumption of what was said already rather than as it was originally presented in Mark. Many more examples could be produced of phenomena similar to the Pentateuch. This shows that the kind of redactional activity presumed by the DH is not imaginary or non-existent in ancient literature, but can easily be observed in other writings where the source materials are still extant.

    So imagine if, in fact, the four gospels were lost in antiquity and all we have today is the Diatessaron. A higher critic could detect the presence of different sources in this work and proceed to distinguish between them in terms of style and content. Such a scholar could distinguish between M L J Mk sources, and notice for instance that Jesus gives long "I am" discourses in J (which are not found in in M L Mk) and "kingdom" parables in M L Mk (which are not found in J, and which have "kingdom of heaven" occurring in M and "kingdom of God" in L and Mk). But if "Winnie the Pooh" (as represented in this thread) is somehow the only "valid" model for understanding ancient compositional and redactional processes, then in such a circumstance one has no justification for suspecting that the four gospels ever existed. Despite its transparently conflate structure, the Diatessaron could simply be regarded as a unitary work by Tatian who intentionally used doublets and different styles for rhetorical effect.

  • Pippa
    Pippa

    I am certainly very interested in all that I'm reading here. Very informative.

    I have just embarked on a study of scriptures as part of a humanities undergraduate course that I'm doing. I find the whole subject absolutely fascinating. It's VERY different from a narrow, fundamentalist or exclusive focus of religion per se. I'm very impressed at the level of knowledge and scholarship expressed here.

    Many thanks

    Pippa

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    The DH (as illustrated by Leolaia's Diatessaron analogy) remains imo the best explanation available for passages where several stories were blended into one, and the compiler tried to erase the differences but did not quite succeed (e.g. the Flood story, or perhaps the Tower of Babel); it is not quite as compelling in cases where alternative (and literally conflicting) stories were simply juxtaposed without any attempt to reconcile them (as the two creation stories). And it may be deemed a needless complication in other (perhaps most) cases.

    The pattern of a gradually growing corpus making room for different literary and theological trends as a result of power struggle and negotiation between diverging Jewish "schools" -- but still having to co-operate to come up with a kind of national "constitution" to warrant their autonomy under the Persian rule accounts better as a general explanation for what we are actually reading imo. This is not to say that a documentary approach is not valid locally.

  • Pippa
    Pippa

    What does anyone make of the hypothesis that much of the OT was compiled under the Hasmonean rule? For political purposes of course, as has been pointed out earlier. I'm no expert but I have heard Judas Macabeus mentioned in connection with this.

    Also it has been suggested that much of it reads like Tababan propaganda for example.

    I certainly the Yahwist God reads like a jealous, fanatical God with severe personality problems. I could not possibly trust such a God, much less pray to 'Him'. I sincerely do not wish to offend anyone with my comments, so apologies if I do so here.

    Also what do people here make of the prefix 'El' that occurrs in so much of this literature?

    Pippa

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