Bibles view of women and children.

by Norm 12 Replies latest jw friends

  • Norm
    Norm

    Christians want that everything must be “wholesome” and “up building”. Of course nothing could be considered more so than the Bible, the “Word of God”. In our society we are very concerned with human rights and in particular the rights of women and children. Let us take a look at some pretty substantial examples of the Biblical and subsequently God’s view of women and children:

    *** Rbi8 Numbers 31:14-18 ***
    And Moses grew indignant at the appointed men of the combat forces, the chiefs of the thousands and the chiefs of the hundreds who were coming in from the military expedition. 15 So Moses said to them: “Have YOU preserved alive every female… 17 And now kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has had intercourse with man by lying with a male. 18 And preserve alive for yourselves all the little ones among the women who have not known the act of lying with a male.

    *** Rbi8 Numbers 31:31-41 ***
    31 And Moses and El•e•a'zar the priest went doing just as Jehovah had commanded Moses. 32 And the booty, the rest of the plunder that the people of the expedition had taken as plunder, amounted to six hundred and seventy-five thousand of the flock, … 35 As for human souls from the women who had not known the act of lying with a male, all the souls were thirty-two thousand… 40 And the human souls were sixteen thousand, and the tax on them for Jehovah was thirty-two souls. 41 Then Moses gave the tax as Jehovah’s contribution to El•e•a'zar the priest, just as Jehovah had commanded Moses.

    *** Rbi8 Judges 21:10-12 ***
    10 Hence the assembly proceeded to send twelve thousand of the most valiant men there and to command them, saying: “Go, and YOU must strike the inhabitants of Ja'besh-gil'e•ad with the edge of the sword, even the women and the little ones. 11 And this is the thing that YOU should do: Every male and every woman that has experienced lying with a male YOU should devote to destruction.” 12 However, they found out of the inhabitants of Ja'besh-gil'e•ad four hundred girls, virgins, that had not had intercourse with a man by lying with a male. So they brought them to the camp at Shi'loh, which is in the land of Ca'naan.

    *** Rbi8 Judges 19:22-30 ***
    22 While they were making their hearts feel good, look! the men of the city, mere good-for-nothing men, surrounded the house, shoving one another against the door; and they kept saying to the old man, the owner of the house: “Bring out the man that came into your house, that we may have intercourse with him.” 23 At that the owner of the house went on out to them and said to them: “No, my brothers, do not do anything wrong, please, since this man has come into my house. Do not commit this disgraceful folly. 24 Here are my virgin daughter and his concubine. Let me bring them out, please, and YOU rape them and do to them what is good in YOUR eyes.But to this man YOU must not do this disgraceful, foolish thing.”

    As you can see it wasn’t very easy to be a woman or a child in Biblical times. Only Jewish women had anything resembling rights. Non-Jewish women and children were as we can see fair game. Notice that Jehovah and Moses was only interested in the “little ones” that had not been engaging is sex, i.e. children that had not had sexual intercourse. The little girls that weren’t virgins were to be slaughtered. As the Bible show us sex with children was quite clearly considered normal. Why else should they need to check which one of the "little ones" who was virgins? Of course the Jewish men could enjoy these little girls as sex slaves for themselves as well as use them for other slave work. And people wonder why the Watchtower Society is full of pedophiles? I mean those who consider this the “word of God” and long back for the days when they could stone people outside the city gates and molest any child they fancied?

    *w52 11/15 703 - **We are not living today among theocratic nations where such members of our fleshly family relationship could be exterminated for apostasy from God and his theocratic organization, as was possible and was ordered in the nation of Israel in the wilderness of Sinai and in the land of Palestine. "Thou shalt surely kill him; thy hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him to death with stones, because he hath sought to draw thee away from Jehovah thy God, . . . And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is in the midst of thee."-Deut. 13:6-11, As being limited by the laws of the worldly nation in which we live and also by the laws of God through Jesus Christ, we can take action against apostates only to a certain extent, that is, consistent with both sets of laws. The law of the land and God's law through Christ forbid us to kill apostates, even though they be members of our own flesh-and-blood family relationship.

    *w60 2/1 80 - 17 There may be rare instances where a child is so hardened in its stubbornness that even the rod of correction cannot drive it out. In the days of Israel parents were instructed by Jehovah to take such a rebel to the city fathers and they, in turn, took the incorrigible one out and stoned him to death. There were no juvenile delinquents under such a system.(Deut. 21:18-21) So also today, the New World society of Jehovah's witnesses can not and will not tolerate juvenile delinquency to exist in its midst. So, to avoid a possible death-dealing blow by being disfellowshiped from the congregation,

    What a wonderful time it was! No “no juvenile delinquents”, and although you couldn’t “desire” a fellow Jews wife, all non-Jewish females was available, and Jewish men could kill a little girl’s family, preferably in front of her, then ascertain her virginity and take her home, neat, eh? Really up building and wholesome material.
    People who actually consider this the “word of God” will find good excuses for every evil deed under the sun in the Bible.

    If mankind hadn’t progressed but still insisted that such treatment of people that didn’t belong to the same tribe, faith etc was not only acceptable but a command from God, we would still be doing this to each other. In fact some places people are still doing it.

    People who read this and actually believe that God ordered these things will of course be more than willing to abuse children given half a chance. Why grapple with grown women when you can have sex with kids? Of course “Jehovah” doesn’t really have anything against it, because he actually ordered it done, back in the good old days,
    will be such people’s rationale.

    You see, the Watchtower Society isn’t really the problem, the problem started long before anyone had ever heard about them. The attitudes toward fellow human beings that is instilled in “believers” who accept Biblical “moral values” like the ones above is the real problem.

    Norm.

  • logical
    logical

    So Norm, what are you complaining about? Go have some fun.

  • closer2fine
    closer2fine

    This was one of the biggest sticking points for me. I was taught that the further we humans got from Adam & Eve, the more imperfect we were. As each generation was born - there was more corruption, more evil, and less of God's plan was in us. My problem with this is, if humans were closer to perfection back then - is this how God intended for females & children to be treated?

    The answer I got was that I needed to have more faith and less concern about God's plan for me. I walked away shortly after that meeting.

    If God dropped acid, would he see people? -- Steven Wright

  • Norm
    Norm

    Logi,

    You said:

    So Norm, what are you complaining about? Go have some fun.

    Could you please explain exactly what FUN you talk about here?

    Norm.

  • waiting
    waiting

    Hey Norm,

    Thank you for the disturbing post. In our area, we were taught "that was then, this is now" concerning how cruel the Israelites "seemed" to be to other nations.

    Actually, just as cruel as the other nations.

    I just finished reading a novel called "The Red Tent" about the violation of Dinah. It was so much more. Based on the characters of the Bible, but a fiction rendering of the lifestyle of Jacob through Dinah and her brother Joseph.

    It talked about the midwives, the Egyptians, Caananites, Hebrews, etc.
    Gave such a look into the background of the Bible characters - things I'd never thought about. Such as, Jacob married Rachael to stay within his blood relatives - not to stay within his religion. Rachel, Leah, and his other two wives stole the teraphim from their father when they left with Jacob. They kept their form of worship for years - until after Jacobs sons killed every male in the town of Shecam's father.

    That never occurred to me before. I'd read it, but just clicked off, like good jw's are taught to do.

    As for the slaughter of Dinah's husband (Jacob had accepted the bride's price for her) and all the town's men, the sons took all the costly items, animals, children and women that they wanted after killing all the men in pain & drugged.

    Then Jacob took all of them (including the booty) and fled the province.

    The book is written by a Jewish woman whose written several books explaining the Jewish faith, etc. - so she's not grinding an axe here - just giving a historical background for a sketchy bible account.

    I came out of the reading with greater respect for the women in particular - hard life, early death, if the "Gods blessed them."

    waiting

  • closer2fine
    closer2fine

    waiting-

    I ordered that book - thanks for the recommendation! This is a sore spot for me, so I really look forward to educating myself further.

  • claudia
    claudia

    Norm, this stuff is so very disturbing, but why kick things under the rug? It needs to be discussed. thank you

  • dedalus
    dedalus

    Thanks for the warm and fuzzies, Norm -- I am truly basking in the warm glow of Jehover's love!

    Dedalus

  • waiting
    waiting

    Hey Closer,

    I hope you enjoy it - I did. I'm sending it to my sister, Patio, who posts here also.

    We both had the same opinion on that "type" of book. As jw's, we wouldn't have read it. The reason? So much different than the view of the Bible. We were taught never to speculate, and this is fiction - but not farfetched, because of Biblical renderings such as Norm presented. This book would have made us think a little about how life and people were really like - not just a paragraph written by men who had an agenda to present.

    I thought it would be incredibly sad - but it's not. Handled quite well. Enjoy!

    waiting

    ps - written from Dinah's viewpoint, thus some "women's songs, etc." I skipped over them - a tad much imho.

  • gsark
    gsark

    Something I've always wondered about...God kept remarking on and responding to the 'hardheartedness' of the Israelites, but what can you expect when you order adults to kill children, babies even. And they do this repeatedly, hardheartedness can be expected.

    On the practical side tho, if the Israelites killed all the adults, and preserved all the children alive, who would care for and support these children, provide them the neccessities of life, and training? This was a nomadic desert people. One cannot serve a child gold or silver for breakfast. I don't see how the Israelites could have supported perhaps tens of thousands of baby boys and girls.

    Killing all women who had evidence of sexual intercourse with a man (as opposed to lesbians???) could be predicated on the existance of rampant venereal disease among cultures with the kind of sexual practices we've been told they had. The Israelites had no cure for these diseases, they could only watch these women and their affected children die slowly and painfully from these diseases while at the same time having to share their resources with them. Impractical at least and at most economically unfeasible.

    Why kill the baby boys and not baby girls? Girls are smaller and won't eat as much? My son has trouble understanding that as well. I can only guess that the Israelites could not do it, so God let them off the hook by saying they could preserve alive the baby girls.

    And I agree with other posters, if an Israelite man could hand over his own daughter and say 'here do with her as you wish' one could only consider with near horror how these foreign females fared in daily Jewish life.

    Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!

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