"Brainwashing " thread......Part 2

by logansrun 33 Replies latest jw friends

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    I thought I?d comment further on ?brainwashing? and why it really could only exist in certain circumstances. First, though, I thought I would put forward a suspicion ? not an argument, but a suspicion -- that we all would do well to think about. As ex-JW?s who have been hurt ? to varying degrees ? by the WT organization it is in our personal interest to make the religion that has caused damage in our life look as bad as possible. The worse the WT looks the better for us! Since ?brainwashing? is certainly bad in the minds of most people we may have very personal motivations to label the JWs as brainwashers since this has the common effect of making us feel a revengeful glee, or perhaps further justifies our complete and utter hatred for everything the JWs stand for. I?m not saying that this is the case, just a possibility. All of us have our biases in this regard, and with this in mind we would do well to examine our motivations for our labels. This is a personal matter, not open to proof and I will therefore not dwell on it.

    Nevertheless, there are more scientific and common-sense reasons why I do not believe in brainwashing on the normal adult level. The thrust of my argument against the notion is how thinking actually occurs in the brain. Many of us believe that external events ? what people say to us, for instance ? causes us to feel/think/act in a certain way. So, if a friend comes up to us and says, ?You?re an idiot!? and we feel sad and angered after this incident we are likely to say that our friend made us feel sad and angry. This seems like common sense, but it is not true. Our friend did not make us feel a certain way. We made ourselves feel sad and angry. Let me explain.

    Borrowing the language of psychologist Albert Ellis, let us label our friend?s statement ?A? for activating event. Label our feeling sad and angry ?C? for consequences. Most people, as I said before, believe that A directly causes C (A>>>C). This is not so. There is an element missing, and that would be ?B? which stands for our beliefs about A. Except for reflex responses of a physical nature this is how all of our conscious mental processes work. (Some might pick up on that word conscious and try and argue that ?brainwashing? takes place on the unconscious level through subliminal messages and the like. But this is very unscientific and could be explained why on another occasion).

    So, when our friend comes up to us and says, ?You?re an idiot!? (A) we form a belief about the statement (B) which leads to the consequences, emotions, etc. (C). In other words, B is a personal filtering process which shapes C. If we feel sad and angered at our friends statement it is due to the fact that at B, our belief about the statement, we told ourselves something like, ?Oh, this is terrible! What have I done? I must be an idiot!? or perhaps ?What a lousy friend he is calling me an idiot! I?m not going to speak with him anymore!? Internal dialogue such as this ? which may take place in a matter of a couple of seconds ? is what causes us to feel sad and angry. Again, A>>>B>>>C.

    But, that doesn?t mean we have to feel sad and angry. At point B we could say to ourselves, ?I do some idiotic things on occasion but that doesn?t mean I?m an idiot. My friend is wrong. Too bad for him!? or ?My friend must be in a really bad mood. I won?t take his statement too seriously.? Beliefs such as this will most likely lead to more productive emotions, not intense sadness and anger.

    What is the point? External events do not by themselves cause us to feel/think/act in a certain way. We have an element of control at point B which will shape our consequences (C). We are not stimulus-response animals. We are thinking animals with a considerable measure of control over our internal cognitions and emotions. All this is pretty standard fare in psychology these days. It?s commonly accepted.

    What does this have to do with ?brainwashing?? Let us label the JWs supposed ?brainwashing statements? as A. ?We are the only true religion because of?? is an admittedly simplistic example, but for space limitations it will suffice. Just because we are exposed to the ?brainwashing statements? at point A does not mean that we will necessarily experience at point C the idea ?Well, then this is the truth?? For this to happen we must at point B tell ourselves something like, ?Well, since this authority figure is saying it?s the truth then?? or ?Hey, this sounds great! I would like to live in paradise therefore?? We are active participants in this ?indoctrination process.? The brainwashing statements (A) could only cause our belief that it is the truth (C) through the filter or our beliefs (B) about A.

    There is no reason why point B could be thought differently, though. We could have said to ourselves after hearing the ?brainwashing statement? something like, ?Well, just because this elder/parent says this does not mean it?s really true? or ?I wonder what other people think about this matter?? and the like. We might even say, as some Witness children undoubtedly do, ?What utter bullshit! These people are nuts!?

    So it is both the activating event (A) plus our beliefs about it (B) which cause our feeling/acting in a certain way (C). Obviously point B is the critical point. It is here where we have the most control. It is here where we decide what our consequence will be to the activating event. It is here where we chose to believe whether it?s the ?Truth? or not.

    Now you might rightly ask, ?How does one ?come up? with the self-statements at point B?? That?s a good question and there is no ?one answer? to it. Partly it is biological. All humans come pre-packaged into the world to be thinking creatures. We all have the capacity to think critically?and to think crookedly! We naturally generalize and overgeneralize. Some of us might even have a genetic disposition to be more accepting and uncritical than others (although a disposition is not destiny; it can be worked on).

    Since we are thinking creatures by nature we have the capability to ?tie together? everything that we experience in our lives into a ?grand narrative? if you will. As Witnesses we experienced a heavy amount of conditioning from the organization, perhaps our family, etc. But that?s not all that we experienced. To greater or lesser degrees we also experienced a number of non-Witness stimuli: going to school, at work, with ?worldly? relatives, the media, in our day-to-day interactions with others in life. All these elements, not just the Witness part, help form our belief system and thinking processes. Our environment and past experience, combined with our biological predispositions, is what gives us the building blocks for our filtering beliefs (B) about all the activating events (A) we experience.

    So, are we then in control of our consequences (feelings, actions, etc) at point C? Yes. It?s the belief system (B) we choose which creates this. Are we in control of our belief system, then? Well, yes and no. It?s a fuzzy concept, free will. Free from what? Free from all external stimuli? Free from our biology? Free from the ?causal nexus?? I don?t know. It is helpful to think of humans as both product and process. We are obviously products of our environment and heredity, but we are also an active process in that the executive centers of our brains constantly are sorting through information, making connections, commanding actions?all of which effect our environments in circular fashion.

    Needless to say (as I have somewhat gone off on a tangent!) our belief system is not solely determined by one group of people, whether family, religion or the like, but by a myriad of factors both biological and environmental. Therefore, ?brainwashing? is a simplistic concept which does not take into account a number of contributing conditions such as genetics, the enormous amount of environmental stimuli outside of the so-called ?brainwashing group? and our own self-consciousness and executive cognitive abilities.

    I admit a couple of possible exceptions, though. The first is the seriously mentally ill. Can it rightly be said that they have good decision making abilities at point B? Obviously not. But, that is true for everything they experience, not just the stimuli they receive from the ?brainwashing group?, in this case, the Witnesses. If a psychotic person sees a television commercial showing how gleefully happy you can be by drinking a Pepsi they are likely to uncritically believe it. Is Pepsi at fault for ?brainwashing? them? I think not. (Yes, this is a crude example and I?m not saying that the JWs shouldn?t be held responsible for some of the errors they have made with the mentally ill. But, of course, for some mentally ill people the JWs may be a good support group offering some semblance of structure to their chaotic lives.)

    Similarly with young children. We can?t expect a six-year-old to think critically about what they are told, nor can they reason philosophically. They have not the life experience to compare information nor are their brains physically developed enough to make complex decisions. So, in a sense, yes ? young Witness children are ?brainwashed.? But, these same youngsters are also ?brainwashed? by cartoons, television commercials showing how ?happy? you can be by eating sugary cereals, by their kindergarten teachers and their fellow playmates.

    It?s unfortunate that JW children have some ?really bad? stimuli in the form of Witness propaganda. Fortunately, though, they grow up. As normal Witness children get older their brains further develop, they experience more and more stimuli and can reason accordingly. Just because they were ?brainwashed? as children does not mean they must continue to be ?brainwashed.? This is a fact that is true of all children as they grow into adults. The problem is that most adults persist their crummy reasoning and hold irrational ideas in their head. At this point, though, one cannot blame their childhood anymore, as it is up to the adult to discontinue irrational, uncritical beliefs held in childhood. (Indeed, is this not how many people come to be ex-Witnesses?)

    I hope this clarifies the matter a little further. By no means do I claim to be an expert and I am not dogmatic about any of this. I do not mean to imply that the Witness organization does not engage in very foolish, manipulative and sometimes dishonest means to attract/retain membership. I also do not minimize the real hurt that they have helped create (with our own help!) in our lives. In the end, I believe that this realization is actually very positive, for it shows that we indeed do have much more control over our lives than we might have thought.

    Reference

    Ellis, Albert (1990). The essential Albert Ellis: seminal writings on psychotherapy. New
    York: Springer Publishing Comapany.

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    I realize some might take exception to my statment:

    To greater or lesser degrees we also experienced a number of non-Witness stimuli: going to school, at work, with ?worldly? relatives, the media, in our day-to-day interactions with others in life. All these elements, not just the Witness part, help form our belief system and thinking processes.

    ...by stating that the Witness religion tries to limit non-Witness stimulit, or at least non-Witness stimuli which might threaten the prescribed Witness worldview. This is true. But, I would reply, this attempt at limiting "contaminating influences" is far from perfect; there is always "leakage" that gets through to individual JWs. In fact, there's quite a bit of it.

    One could further state that the Witnesses are trained to interpret this "leakage" of worldly influences in a manner that is favorable to the Witness worldview. But, for this to happen requires that each individual JW at B (belief) choose to accept the standard Witness line of thinking when they are told to do so at A (activating event). The choice, ultimately, is still in each individual (adult) Witness.

    Bradley

  • Brummie
    Brummie

    It seems like you have put a lot of effort into something that doesnt exist, now pass me that bottle of bleach and lets get this over with ....

    Brummie

  • shotgun
    shotgun

    Bradley

    After that friend calls me an idiot and I kick him in the nuts was it my foot that hurt him or his reaction to the stimuli?

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    Actually, Brummie, how "brainwashing" relates to the A>>>B>>>C model of human cognition is only incidental. Although it may be of interest (or not!) to many here, I think it's real important application lies in the day-to-day experiences we all have. How many times do we say to ourselves, "Gee he really made me upset" or "Damn, the weather is making me so depressed!" It's all our B's follks!

    B.

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    shotgun,

    Ah, you're comparing apples and oranges! Physical pain is one thing, cognitive/emotive stimuli is another. What's the expression? "Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me?" Too true.

    B.

  • Winston Smith :>D
    Winston Smith :>D

    So Bradley, am I understanding you correctly that you are saying that since we as humans have control over how we process information [i.e., 'B'] we therefore were not brainwashed as JW's?

    And for further clarification, can you give me a simple one or two sentence definition of brainwashing? I'd like to know what your perception of brainwashing is before I address my viewpoints on this matter. I see this says pt 2, so forgive me if you already gave such a definition in another post.

  • logansrun
    logansrun
    So Bradley, am I understanding you correctly that you are saying that since we as humans have control over how we process information [i.e., 'B'] we therefore were not brainwashed as JW's?

    Essentially, yes. I believe we were definitely manipulated, but we did have some "say so" in the matter and certainly could have stopped letting ourselves be manipulated. In fact, most of us have done so.

    And for further clarification, can you give me a simple one or two sentence definition of brainwashing? I'd like to know what your perception of brainwashing is before I address my viewpoints on this matter. I see this says pt 2, so forgive me if you already gave such a definition in another post.

    I prefer to define "brainwashing" the way the general public generally defines it, that is, manipulating another human beings thoughts through unusual psychological means to the point where one is no longer in control of their own thinking. This has been repeated on this forum as when one poster said she "couldn't help" the way she was thinking when she was a JW. (No offense to that poster is intended at all, btw). Bradley

  • Winston Smith :>D
    Winston Smith :>D
    but we did have some "say so" in the matter and certainly could have stopped letting ourselves be manipulated. In fact, most of us have done so.

    agreed

    I prefer to define "brainwashing" ...that is, manipulating another human beings thoughts through unusual psychological means to the point where one is no longer in control of their own thinking.

    Ok, I would like to clarify some things in that definition. One, you mention unusual. How about usual means? You can likely see where I am going with this, as I would argue that usual, or more importantly, means that appear innocuous and 'everyday' can many times be more effective. Two, you mention 'to the point where one is no longer in control of their own thinking', meaning that there is a period of transition. I could argue that during the period of transition a person uses stage 'B', but then is taught to circumvent stage 'B' and go directly from 'A' to 'C'. I can't discuss more as I have to get out of work before I get asked to do anything else on this half day of work, but I will come back later. Have a good X-mass!

  • cyber-sista
    cyber-sista

    Bradley,

    Languages and takes on different meaning at different times in different cultures. Does the word brainwashing apply to what the WT does to its followers? For the record I asked my physcologist this question yesterday. (He is well educated and has dealt much with helping people who have left cults-- and has 30 years of practice under his belt). He said yes, the word brainwashing is one word that is used--along with the word conditioning in regard to people who have been manipulated by religion or otherwise. Hilter used a form of this with his propaganda, which led people to do horrendous things that they would not have normally done, which the country still apologizes for this day.

    Their constant repeated messages--their long droning speaches certainly put many of us into a trancelike state of mind.

    The WT Org wants their members to hear their voice only and then to LISTEN AND OBEY.

    Well, they don't use a pendulum to hypnotize us or a lot of physical torture (though sitting in chairs for hours at a time was rather uncomfortable) but it still sounds like the old description of brainwashing to me.

    cybs

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