Greetings All,
My discussion group recently debated this topic.
I am interested in everyone's thoughts on these questions:
WHy is there evil?
What motivates those who perpetrate it?
How do they reconcile their actions with a self-image that does not embrace evil?
Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.regards,Tina
QUESTIONS ON "EVIL"
by Tina 28 Replies latest jw friends
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Tina
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Seeker
My theory:
Evil comes from selfishness. A person wants something, and is willing to hurt others in the process of getting it. How can that person look themselves in the mirror while rejecting the idea of evil within themselves? By rationalization. Since they are acting on selfish impules, and since selfishness can be rationalized as something needed, the needs of the injured party can be discounted or forgotten about.
Examples:
1. The WTS allows babies to die from lack of blood. This is evil. Do they view it as evil? No, they view it as a necessary, if sad, event, and for a higher cause. That higher cause, of course, is ultimately a selfish one: the preservation and maintenance of the WTS, even if the individual JW never catches on to this. Thus this evil comes from sefishness, but is not viewed as evil by the perpertrator.
2. The Jewish holocaust during and leading up to WWII. This was evil. Was it viewed as evil by those in charge? Ultimately, when they were forced to face the facts, but for a long time it was rationalized away by demonizing Jews and attributing all sorts of bad things to them. Was selfishness the cause here? Yes, for the Aryans selfishly wanted a 'pure' society for themselves. One thing led to another and the end result was horrific.
That last point is important to emphasize. Evil acts don't always begin as evil. Peaceful protestors have all the right motives in the world. A few hours later, as the crowd is whipped into a frenzy of violence, you wonder where THAT came from. It came step by inexorable step until peaceful people were influenced to do evil things that would not normally have come into their head. The crowd principle in action.
One final thought: Don't forget about mental illness. Societal restraints can be thrust aside in an instant when a person's brain chemistry goes haywire. Evil can result.
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Englishman
Hmmm,
Tina, I gotta say that I don't believe that it is in many persons hearts to be evil.
Most people are kind and helpful.
Most people rejoice when things go well with you.
Religious organisations such as the dubs will have you believe that it is in man's nature to be sinful. I don't believe it, deviants are the exception in society, their mis-doings are seized upon by religious bodies as some sort of proof to justify their own existence.
As for me, I believe what ABBA said: I believe in angels!
Englishman.
..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.
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JanH
Tina,
WHy is there evil?
What motivates those who perpetrate it?
How do they reconcile their actions with a self-image that does not embrace evil?
At least half the problem with discussing a complex issue like "evil" is to actually define the term.Once you have hammered out a meaningful definition of "evil", you might find that the definition itself answers the question pretty good. And then, you probably discover that the definition was inadequate, or that other people operate with other definitions.
The question also seems to assume there is some objective truth about what behaviour is evil. Many religionists, for example, will argue that sexual relationships outside marriage is evil. Others will disagree.
As I see it, the existence of the concept "evil" is not very hard to explain. As Seeker said, evil comes froms selfishness. But it is far from an adequate description. Most of what we do is motivated by a degree of selfishness. And in most situations of life, we grasp for a good that is in limited supply. Competing successfully for your goal may deny it for another person who wants and needs it just as much. When is struggle for resources necessary for survival, and when is it "evil"? Not necessarily easy questions.
- Jan
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Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911] -
Francois
Interesting question. And JanH is right on as usual. First, definitions (yes, these are my definitions, sorry):
Evil is a partial realization of, or maladjustment to, universe realities. It's inherent in the fact of the lack of perfection in the material world.
Sin is a purposeful resistance to divine reality--a conscious choosing to oppose spiritual progress in yourself or in others.
Iniquity consists in an open and persistent defiance of recognized reality and signifies such a degree of personality disintegration as to border on cosmic insanity. It represents a person dedicated to and identified with deliberate sin as a way of life.
God did not create evil. Evil is brought into existance by the deliberate choice of a free will being - like you and me. And to make free will choice mean anything, there must be the contrastive evil from which to choose. Human beings could never lay saving hold on righteousness if there were no potential evil to exalt and differentiate the good by contrast.
As stated in the Tao Te Ching: Beauty is recognized as beauty only in contrast to ugliness. Evil is recognised as evil only in contrast to the good.
But one doesn't need to actually choose an evil path for it to have its influence on a god-conscious being. Potential evil is close enough for most people.
Motivation? Is unselfishness--the spirit of self-forgetfulness--desirable in the children of God? Then we must live face to face with the incessant clamoring of an inescapable self for recognition and honor. We could not dynamically choose the divine life if there were no self-life to forsake. And so, like most of our self-inflicted problems, its the self, the ego that motivates such a choice.
And the ego can justify any behavior at all, as long as the ego is being served.
Francois
My $0.02
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Introspection
Hi Tina, I'm not familiar with your discussion group (I don't think?) and I was wondering if you might summarize the points they've covered so far.
"It is not so much that you use your mind wrongly--you usually don't use it at all. It uses you. This is the disease."--Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now
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heathen
mamma always says,"evil is as evil dose".
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Introspection
Hi Francoise,
As stated in the Tao Te Ching: Beauty is recognized as beauty only in contrast to ugliness. Evil is recognised as evil only in contrast to the good.
Can you give me the chapter where this quote is taken from? I'm also curious as to which translation it came out of. I think it may be revealing to compare, I have a little program that has over a dozen translations.
Well I guess I'll add my thoughts to what we've got so far. I don't know if it's meaningful to talk about evil other than willful, conscious evil, as it could very well be a frustrated person acting out of conditioned response. Also, not being selfish can come from different places too. The image that comes to my much polluted mind is Cartman from South Park selling candy to other kids at weight loss camp, saying "There there, Mr. Chocolate Bar doesn't judge you" as he gives it to the kid emotionally distraught over yet another failed attempt to lose weight despite promising his parents that he will make it work this time. Children may be kind and unselfish, but that could come out of identifying with others in a way that lacks maturation, thinking what they think is necessarily what others would think. I can't remember, but I think maybe the whole matter of what the golden rule really means was clarified by Kant or someone, but obviously as adults we know that there's a balance between doing what we think is best for another and respecting their autonomy. After all, it does say do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and you wouldn't want them to impose their own thinking on you. I suppose it's like the whole matter of leaving the WTS, the best we can really do is try to help others see it for themselves.
I guess how that relates is whether the selfishness comes from either a perceived or real lack vs. greed. Maybe someone else can pick up on this point...
"It is not so much that you use your mind wrongly--you usually don't use it at all. It uses you. This is the disease."--Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now
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unclebruce
G'day Tina,
This is a deep and complicated topic. When a spider traps a fly and rips it to pieces does the fly flinch in terror when too late it sees the dark mass looming. All animals including you and I have the ability to invoke evil both on an individual level and at a tribal one. Recently we have seen good examples of evil born of mass hysteria and cold blooded political and religious leadership in Germany, Russia, China, Cambodia, Rhuanda etc..
The blackness of the Brooklyn thugs pales when compared to Pol Pot's Budhists and the Rhuandan Hutsies but is there all the same, cold and black not careing for anything or anyone but that all powerful invisible God "The Society".
Sad, pathetic and true .. unclebruce
PS: I've just started reading 'The Gulag Archipeligo' and it is a reminder of the deep rooted fear most JW's live under (like our paranoid feind VampireMagdaleena)
Francoice and Introspection - I am Taoist but that balance of evil and good is not a viewpoint I've ever been comfortable with. Something smells fishy about it .. perhaps it sounds too much like Persian dualism .. perhaps I'm wrong .. at this stage I'm clueless but in no hurry
Francoice - I love your posts man - what was it you had for breakfast? Greenbeans and riceburgers? .. I'll slide along and give you space ;)
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