Disqualified from Cong. duties

by TR 41 Replies latest members adult

  • TR
    TR

    Someone very close to me lost their "privledges" at the Hall for having a vacsectomy. Yep. The elders told him it was a gross disrespect to Jehovah to have this proceedure done. I think he was secretly joyous that no more would he be expected to run the mic, give talks, etc.

    Not too long afterward, I wanted the same proceedure done. I purposely met with an elder who had six kids to discuss it.(different KH) He and his wife were in their mid-forties at the time and just had a new baby. Obviously, I wanted his take on the situation. He was not against it, and said it would have no affect on me in the cong.(as if it were anyone's business anyway)I then told him about the situation with the other brother. This elder was upset that punitive action was being taken against this other brother. Looks like Jah's org isn't so united, after all. The only reference that I could find in recent WT rags said it was a conscience matter.

    I would have thought that a vacsectomy would be redily accepted since 'geddon was right around the corner. Several talks were given about not having kids in the "time of the end".

    When I look back on my experience as a JW, not much was really unified. Anyone else have an experience like this?

    TR

  • zev
    zev

    Experience...No.
    Thought about it...YES!

    Here, maybe is some helpful information. Note the LAST paragragh.
    It may explain why your friend lost his "privledges".

    *** w99 6/15 27 Questions From Readers ***
    Questions From Readers

    Since sterilization procedures are now said to be reversible on request, might a Christian view them as a birth-control option?

    Sterilization has become the most widely used means of family planning. For many people, its acceptability seems determined by social and educational background, as well as by religious views. The aspect of religious belief comes into play with Jehovah's Witnesses, who share the psalmist's desire: "Instruct me, O Jehovah, in your way, and lead me in the path of uprightness." (Psalm 27:11) What is involved in sterilization procedures?

    Male sterilization for birth control is called a vasectomy. Two small sperm cords, or tubes, in the scrotum are cut and blocked. This can be done in various medical ways, but the intent is to make it impossible for sperm to pass from the testicles. Female sterilization is called tubal ligation. It is usually done by cutting and tying (or, burning) closed the Fallopian tubes, which carry eggs from the ovaries to the uterus.

    It was long considered that these steps were permanent-that they produced irreversible sterilization. But some people, because of regretting their step or as a result of new circumstances, have sought medical help to undo a vasectomy or tubal ligation. With the advent of specialized instruments and microsurgery, attempts at reversal have been more successful. It is not uncommon to read that with selected candidates there can be 50 to 70 percent success in reversing a vasectomy by rejoining the severed ends of the tiny tubes. Rates of 60 to 80 percent success for reversing female tubal ligation are claimed. Some who have learned about this have felt that sterilization need no longer be viewed as permanent. They might believe that a vasectomy and tubal ligation can be viewed as being in the same category as oral contraceptives, condoms, and diaphragms-methods that can be discontinued if a pregnancy is desired. Yet, some sobering aspects should not be ignored.

    One is that prospects for a reversal can be hurt dramatically by such factors as the amount of damage to tubes during the sterilization procedure, the amount of the tube removed or scarred, the number of years that have passed since the procedure, and in the case of a vasectomy, whether antibodies against the man's sperm have resulted. And not to be ignored is the fact that facilities for microsurgery may not be available in many areas, or the expense may be prohibitive. Thus, many who might desperately wish to have a sterilization reversed would not be able to. For them it is final. So the above-noted rates for reversals are really just theoretical, not dependable averages.

    Some facts bear on the realities. An article published in the United States on reversing a vasectomy commented that after the $12,000 operation, "only 63 percent of patients can impregnate their partners." Moreover, just "six percent of men who get a vasectomy eventually seek a reversal." In a German study about central Europe, some 3 percent of men who chose to be sterilized later sought reversal. Even if half of those attempts could succeed, it would mean that for 98.5 percent, having a vasectomy amounted to permanent sterilization. And the rate would be higher in lands with few or no microsurgeons.

    Consequently, it is unrealistic to treat male or female sterilization lightly, as if it were temporary birth control. And for the sincere Christian, there are other aspects to consider.

    A central point is that reproductive powers are a gift from our Creator. His original purpose included procreation by perfect humans, who would "fill the earth and subdue it." (Genesis 1:28) After the Flood cut earth's population to eight, God repeated those basic instructions. (Genesis 9:1) God did not repeat that command to the nation of Israel, but Israelites viewed having offspring as something very desirable.-1 Samuel 1:1-11; Psalm 128:3.

    God's Law to Israel contained indications of his regard for human procreation. For example, if a married man died before producing a son to carry on his lineage, his brother was to father a son by brother-in-law marriage. (Deuteronomy 25:5) More to the point was the law about a wife who tried to help her husband in a fight. If she grasped the privates of her husband's opponent, her hand was to be amputated; significantly, God did not require eye-for-eye damage to her or her husband's reproductive organs. (Deuteronomy 25:11, 12) This law would clearly engender respect for reproductive organs; these were not to be destroyed needlessly.

    We know that Christians are not under Israel's Law, so the regulation at Deuteronomy 25:11, 12 is not binding on them. Jesus neither ordered nor implied that his disciples must marry and have as many children as possible, which many couples have considered when deciding on whether to use some method of birth control. (Matthew 19:10-12) The apostle Paul did encourage passionate 'younger widows to marry and bear children.' (1 Timothy 5:11-14) He did not bring up the permanent sterilization of Christians-their voluntarily sacrificing their reproductive potential to bear children.

    Christians do well to weigh such indications that God esteems their reproductive ability. Each couple must determine if and when they will employ appropriate methods of family planning. Granted, their decision would be particularly telling if there were confirmed medical assurances that mother or child faced grave medical risks, even a probability of death, with a future pregnancy. Some in that situation have reluctantly submitted to a sterilization procedure as described earlier to make sure that no pregnancy would threaten the life of the mother (who may already have other children) or that of a child who might later be born with a life-threatening health problem.

    But Christians who are not facing such an unusual and distinct risk would certainly want to use 'soundness of mind' and shape their thinking and deeds by God's esteem for reproductive potential. (1 Timothy 3:2; Titus 1:8; 2:2, 5-8) This would reflect mature sensitivity to Scriptural indications. Yet, what if it became publicly known that a Christian blithely disregarded God's evaluations? Would not others doubt whether he (or, she) was a good example, having a reputation of making decisions in harmony with the Bible? Such a disturbing blemish on one's reputation could, of course, affect a minister's being qualified for special privileges of service, though that might not be so if one had in ignorance had this procedure performed.-1 Timothy 3:7.

    So watch out who you tell if you decide to get pruned.

    __

    zev

    Sitting on the Wrong Side of the Fence Class

    Edited by - zev on 7 March 2001 4:47:7

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    Hi TR,

    Just a quick response. My initial reaction was: "How did they get to know?"

    It just amazes me that such small and in this case intimate details become public property within the congregations.

    It's none of their b****y business!

    This elder class has degenerated into a Pharisee class, for all the world to see, as with the original Pharisees. And as with the Pharisees of 2,000 years ago, they strut their stuff, thanking God that they are not sinners like the other people.

    Ozzie

  • TR
    TR

    ozzie,

    I'm sure that this brother thought he was doing the right thing by asking the elders. I thought the same way at the time. Of course, it is none of their damn business, now that I can think for myself again!

    Zev,

    . Yet, what if it became publicly known that a Christian blithely disregarded God's evaluations? Would not others doubt whether he (or, she) was a good example, having a reputation of making decisions in harmony with the Bible? Such a disturbing blemish on one's reputation could, of course, affect a minister's being qualified for special privileges of service, though that might not be so if one had in ignorance had this procedure performed.-1 Timothy 3:7.

    Once again the WTS has shown absolutely no reason to empose sanctions. "In harmony with the bible"? "In ignorance had this procedure performed"? What kind of crap is this?

    TR

  • zev
    zev

    Why its wtbts double talk and poppycock, of course

    __

    zev

    Sitting on the Wrong Side of the Fence Class

  • larc
    larc

    Now is not the time to get "pruned"!

    Back in the 1940's it was a good time for this bold action when Rutherford told the flock not to get married let alone have little people in their lives. Just before 1975 was another good time to prevent babies, because the Appocolypse was at our door. Dear brothers and sisters this is not a good time to get cut. Our membership is falling and consequently you need to pump out as many babies as you can. Hopefully, half of them will grow up and stay with us.

  • thinkers wife
    thinkers wife

    Just when I think I have heard it all!!!! Unbelievable. This makes me so angry, I can't see straight. What ever happened to responsibly bearing children and all the responsibilities that go with it?
    Just one more case of the idiots sticking their nose where it doesn't belong.
    Thank you for sharing TR and Zev for giving the explanation.
    Just one more reason I'm glad I am out!!!
    TW

  • waiting
    waiting

    Hey TR,

    It's the same basic attitude around here. When I married my second husband, who had no children, I already had 3 rugrats. Neither of us wanted anymore. A decision had to be made as I had gotten pregnant in the past with *not permanent* birth control. And wine.

    My husband asked his brother (elder) about what the Society taught. We were good dubs. His brother & father explained just what happened to your friend. Any priveledges would most likely be removed. But they *discreetly* brought out that not much was written by the Society about women on this particular subject.

    So I had a tubal ligation. Please don't miss the irony here - Being a woman, I had to go to the hospital, have day surgery, and hurt like hell for 2 days (don't believe it when they say it doesn't). He, being a man, would have had to go to the doctor's office, half day off work. The cost ratio between a tubal ligation vs vasectomy is quite different, tubal ligation being more dangerous and expensive. At least this is what I was told.

    Another significant irony - I, being a woman, had no priveledges in the congregation to lose as a woman has none in the first place. So therefore, the cutting was done to me.

    Ain't life grand?

    waiting

    Edited by - waiting on 7 March 2001 11:9:36

  • TR
    TR

    Waiting,

    I'm sorry that the WTS's loophole made you bare the brunt of the pain.

    However,

    He, being a man, would have had to go to the doctor's office, half day off work

    I wish this was the case for me. I had it done on a friday night. I did what the doctor said and stayed of my feet the whole weekend. I should have taken the whole week off, because I was in major pain the whole week. I could hardly walk. The doc said that usually one incision is made to access the vas, but with me it was two incisions because the two vas' weren't close enough together for one cut.

    It doesn't take much imagination to see what walking does to the 'ol ball bag!

    TR

  • ianao
    ianao

    ouch.

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