To: Borgfree / Elder Culpability

by Amazing 17 Replies latest jw friends

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  Amazing

  Hi Borgfree: On Freefallin’s post you noted the following, “I know there are some serving as elders etc. who may be decent people apart from the WT. However, the people they hurt by enforcing the WT doctrines are just as hurt as if done by an unloving elder. The innocent children who refuse blood by listening to their parents AND the backing of the GOOD elders are just as dead. As long as these GOOD elders preach and enforce the terrible doctrines of the WT, then they are just as responsible for those wrongs as a bad elder.” Borgfree

  You raise a very good and serious issue here, and one that has troubled me at times: I was a JW for 25 years. After a few years in the organization, I served as a Ministerial Servant and then an Elder. Altogether I served in 9 different congregations in three states. During the period I was an Elder, I was still a ‘True Believer’ but I was developing some reservations, and acted to mitigate harm as I could. Unfortunately, I also inadvertently caused some harm.

  I eventually read “Crisis of Conscience” in 1989, and stayed a JW – with even more serious reservations – but saw no where else to go. In late 1991, I read “In Search of Christian Freedom” and other critical literature, and made my decision to leave. I walked away in May 1992, and helped my family out, and by July to August 1992, my whole family was out.

  What about Elders who stay in? Are they really culpable, fitting the profile you mention? One ex-Elder and PO who has posted here was removed as an Elder in August 2001 and later DF’d in September this year for apostasy. Yet, I knew him as a poster on this forum and on the old H20 long before this happened. His insight and involvement, like many other current Elders who post on ex-JW forums, provide help in many ways. Are thay also guilty of harm because they choose to stay in the organization for serious personal reasons? Are they able to mitigate harm, or even avoid causing harm if they can find ways to steer around certain harmful teachings of the Society?

  I question: Because I am not sure how to judge current JW Elders who are no longer JWs in their hearts. Must they exit the organization no matter what in order to maintain a sense of integrity? Or is it possible that these types of Elders can do good, avoid harm, and find some way to balance out their continued active involvement? Is this a ‘Black and White’ issue, or perhaps an area that allows shades of gray? What do you and others think? – Amazing
• 

  Hyde_n_Sikh

  ...current JW Elders who are no longer JWs in their hearts. Must they exit the organization no matter what in order to maintain a sense of integrity?

  YES. Since the organization itself requires absolute adherence to a specific standard, remaining in that organization announces to onlookers that the Elder unequivocally supports that standard.

  is it possible that these types of Elders can do good, avoid harm, and find some way to balance out their continued active involvement?

  NO. Remaining inside an organization when you do not wholeheartedly agree with its goals, methods, principles, teachings, decisions, and plans misleads the very persons you are trying to assist.
• 

  anewperson

  There has always been Jehovah's Christ and now a place and new friends withing the Free Christians movement which has independent cooperative Bible groups (100% non-Watchtower, nonprofit): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jahchristian
  Contactees: Ron Owens [email protected] (W VA) 304-384-7843, Mike Terry [email protected] (ARK) Mike Warren [email protected] (USA NW) leave phone message 503-232-3747 [email protected] (at large)
• 

  Lee Elder

  Hello Amazing,

  You wrote:

  "I am not sure how to judge current JW Elders who are no longer JWs in their hearts."

  Why judge individuals at all? From a Christian perspective, that role
  belongs to Jesus. From a legal perspective that role belongs to a jury.

  Some of these folks are helping and can play an important role in
  moving the organization to where it needs to be. If I could have stomached it, I would have stayed longer. Most really do their very best. In some ways I still feel like I betrayed some of the members of my congregation by leaving them in the hands of oppressive wolves.

  I think we have to respect the choices that other elders make. In the
  end, we all accept the natural consequences of our choices. I see nothing to gain by second guessing others in this regard and hope that
  others don't judge me for way the I handled my situation. I did the best that I could, as I'm sure you did too.

  Best regards,

  Lee
• 

  tyydyy

  Hey Hyde,

  I'd have to respectfully disagree with you that remaining in that organization announces to onlookers that the Elder unequivocally supports that standard. If that were true then our country would have to execute our spies as traitors because they play their role as a citizen or soldier of a foriegn country.
  Sometimes we can do more good inside than out.
  TimB
• 

  Amazing

  Hi Lee Elder: Appreciate your comments. I did not mean 'judge' in the religoius or civil sense, as though one would risk being 'judgmental.' I used the term 'judge' more loosely such as one might say, 'assess', 'evaluate', 'understand', 'view', 'determine', and other synonyms, although I do include judgement, such as using good judgment - and judging, in and of itself, is not entirely bad.

  Your sentiments about some JW Elders remaining in the organization, and continuing their service as Elders, is similar to my own. I do not believe that all Elders who disagree with the organization but stray for personal reasons should be rigidly categorized as some posters suggest. I was merely opening up the topic because it is one that at times seems to influence the flavor of certain posters comments. Thanks. - Amazing
• 

  AMNESIAN

  I think we have to respect the choices that other elders make. In the end, we all accept the natural consequences of our choices. I see nothing to gain by second guessing others in this regard and hope that others don't judge me for way the I handled my situation. I did the best that I could, as I'm sure you did too.

  Boy, LE, do I ever disagree with this.

  This kind of reasoning can only be justified when one's choices affect only him as the chooser. That's not the case with elders. These men stay in the business of judging others---their hearts, their motives, their intentions, no less!--- and affecting the very course of our entire lives but are not to be judged by us? Rubbish!

  Elders who remain such for the WTS, no matter how well-intentioned and decent they perceive themselves to be, are as guilty of perpetuating egregious abuse and inflicting monstrous damage on others--- no matter how thoughtfully they claim to execute such--- as the wicked elder who feels no need absolution for his rotteness. It is unconscionable to justify carrying out atrocities on trusting innocents by claiming to do so in the service of some greater cause. To suggest that they shouldn't be judged by us sadly smacks of the same type "counsel" the Society excels at dispensing to inflict guilt on the multitude for believing their lying eyes.

  -AMNESIAN
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  moman

  Underestimating the Borg's BRAINWASHING power iz a deadly mistake! The JW cult robs the followers of their most important asset, their FREEDOM to think for themselves! The danger iz not just physical, like the bogas blood ban, but the psycological damage the cult does.
  When an individual loses their freedom to decide & follows the mindset of the Borg, they can never be happy, they become mere shells of their REAL self.
  Die Borg Die!!!!!!
• 

  borgfree

  Hi Amazing,

  Sorry, I had left the computer for a while. I did not really have in mind an elder who would not enforce WT rules etc. I am thinking of the ones who might be very nice people, kind, generous, viewed by JWs and outsiders as a wonderful person, but, at the same time will enforce the WT orders on the witnesses, such as the blood ban or voting to disfellowship a fellow witness for some infraction. Their descisions affect peoples lives, sometimes severly, I know of a 20 year old JW who committed suicide.

  When I personally was convinced that the WT was false, I prepared a DA letter, thinking that I would use it at some future time. Instead when I had completed it I found that I could not wait and mailed it immediately. Just a personal descision. Each of us must take that step in our own time.

  I also was and am a strong believer in our God and our Lord Jesus, I never lost that. I kept my faith and later "gave my life to our Lord" I say that knowing many here think it is silly, but for me it is very real. I believe that when we give our life to our Lord that ALL of our wrongs that we have committed are forgiven. I have more than my share and am thankful for that forgiveness. Even the apostle Paul did serious wrongs before following Jesus.

  We can only leave our past in the past and move on, we hope, to much better things. I do not wish to condemn any particular elder or JW, I have many in my family, including a son-in-law who is an elder. I pray almost every day for all of them, that their eyes will be opened to the lies of the WT. My prayer was answered less than a year ago when my 21 year old son left the WT and he also gave his life to our Lord. I had practically no contact with him from the time he was baptised in the WT, at about 13 years old.

  I don't blame some for "playing the game" for a while, I know what it feels like to loose all of your family etc. I do not think that a "servant" can, with a good conscience, enforce rules on fellow witnesses that he has come to know to be bad and harmful.

  Borgfree

  "You can fool some of the people all of the time" especially if you are a member of the WT GB
• 

  Amazing

  Hi Amnesian: You said,

  "Elders who remain such for the WTS, no matter how well-intentioned and decent they perceive themselves to be, are as guilty of perpetuating egregious abuse and inflicting monstrous damage on others--- no matter how thoughtfully they claim to execute such--- as the wicked elder who feels no need absolution for his rotteness. It is unconscionable to justify carrying out atrocities on trusting innocents by claiming to do so in the service of some greater cause. To suggest that they shouldn't be judged by us sadly smacks of the same type "counsel" the Society excels at dispensing to inflict guilt on the multitude for believing their lying eyes."

  Have you ever been a JW Elder? The men who are appointed by the Society are no different than the average JW Publisher. They are appointed because they are adults, active in the organization at levels which meet Watch Tower rules. JW Elders are simply believers who are caught up in the same system as every other JW.

  Many non-Elder JWs do not believe in the organization, and by your standard, they are all therefore culpable. I think this is far too harsh, and does not allow for gray areas.

  And, you nspeak of atrosities and harm as though JWs have a gun to their heads. While serious harm has been done in many cases, it is usually a combination of factors, of which an Elder or Elders may have played a role. Certainly, the child molestation issue is among these where many Elders are very culpable. I myself threatened and eventually went to the authorities, and this stand led to my being DA'd. So, I have been there and done that.

  At the same time, not all Elders have been part of JC cases involving molestation or other kinds of harm. And most of these are not always aware of any kind of molestation case that other Elders are involved in. I only knew of these because as Secretary I maintained the JC files, and had ocassion to know what was in these files.

  Yes, the Watch Tower religion is clearly wrong, cult-like, and has caused harm to many. But it is a far cry from even more serious groups. And the average JW, whether a Pioneer, an MS, an Elder, or even a CO or DO are victims of the same mind-control as everyone else in the group. I believe that the statement, 'Victims of Victims and Followers of Followers' is very fitting.

  If you were ever a JW, you are just as culpable and guilty as those you ardently condemn. Why? You supported the same system, preached the same message, misled the public at the door, and gave financial suport to religious crooks --- so your judgment comes back on your own head. We are all pups from the same bitch.

  The difference is that when we come to our senses, we make plans to do something about it. The point of my initial post is how we draw the line, and Lee Elder stated one way that many have drawn the line. I believe he presented fair sentiments in general. - Amazing