JWs, Christmas and "pagan origin"

by teejay 26 Replies latest jw friends

  • teejay
    teejay

    For those of you that don't know, I was raised a Witness from the time I was five. I remember celebrating one Christmas. My mother was studying then and didn't want to support my dad, but she gave in one last time. To this day, I remember a couple of the presents I got.

    Since I was with my big sister over the weekend, and since I have a daughter now and wonder about the genuinely negative affect the Christmas celebration might/might not have, I brought up the subject. Although my sister has been df'd since 1971 and as far as I know has no plans for reinstatement, she still has strong JW leanings. Also present in the friendly but spirited debate was her husband of 29 years. He is one of the finest men I've ever known. He has zero use for the JW religion but is objective and a good listener. My JW-loyalist wife was also there.

    Predictably, the usual JW argument against Christmas quickly entered the debate: it has a pagan origin. I pointed out that many common things have pagan origins.

    "Like what," my wife asked.

    "That wedding ring you have on, for one," I said.

    "Well... that's different."

    Right. People pick and choose what pagan practice is bad and which is good - or allow someone to do it for them. That being the case, I tried to expunge the pagan-origin issue from the discussion. Most things that are deemed bad are bad for a reason having nothing to do with paganism -- drug abuse, cigarette smoking, sleeping around, etc, all have negative effects or are illegal. In their case, there is no need to invoke pagan-origin as a reason to avoid them.

    I have little regard for the JW argument that Christmas is bad because it has a pagan origin. As far as I'm concerned, people who use it -- particularly if they are wearing a wedding ring -- need to have a big red "H" painted on their forehead. My question: excluding the pagan-origin issue, what bad consequences result from the celebration of Christmas. I mean, what's wrong with getting a tree and trimmng it? Stringing pretty lights around your house? Giving loved ones and family members gifts?

    Any ideas?

  • Missie Eff
    Missie Eff

    I posted something similar a few weeks ago and I got a fabulous response from other members of the board.

    After some thought, I decided that I would do what I wanted for Christmas, so I have made a few decorations and have bought presents for my family. My Mum and brother are coming around for Christmas lunch and it will be the first Christmas we have ever spent together. I must say that I'm looking forward to it.

    One of the reasons why I decided to do this was exactly as you said: many common things have pagan origins. The rules about what are "right" and "wrong" practices have been MADE UP and I think that we've come from a culture where this has been conveniently forgotten!

    My conclusion: don't do anything that you're not entirely sure about but give you're daughter a family Christmas. I don't want my son to miss out the way I did.

    What ever you do, have a good one!

  • teejay
    teejay

    Missie Eff,

    Could you provide the link? Or, do you remember the title your thread has? I'd be satisfied w/ either.

    Thank you.

    tj

  • teejay
    teejay

    Btw, Missie Eff, if it was just me, I'd have no problem with celebrating any aspect of Christmas. My wife is a dub, though, and I'm looking for ways to get her to reason. I'm finding it to be a steep hill to climb.

  • Scully
    Scully

    teejay writes:

    My wife is a dub, though, and I'm looking for ways to get her to reason. I'm finding it to be a steep hill to climb.

    Your wife should check out the current 12/15/2001 Watchtower article in the Questions from Readers section.

    It basically says that a JW wife can, without risking being referred to as a "dog returning to its vomit", make "holiday" purchases (gifts, wrapping, cards, etc), prepare "holiday" meals, participate in "holiday" socializing and the like at her non-JW husband's request. She must only avoid what would be considered an act of worship.

    Try and find what would be considered an act of worship in the context of exchanging gifts, or gathering with loved ones, or listening to beautiful music, or even looking at and participating in the ornamenting of a tree in one's home. The article specifically states that the individual can decide for themselves what they do and do not consider to constitute an act of worship or an activity of religious significance.

    It appears that the WTS is preparing itself for a come-back to the observance of Christmas and other holidays, or at least making a move to leave the matter to the individual's conscience.

    "A Good Thing" -- Martha Stewart

    Love, Scully

    It is not persecution for an informed person to expose a certain religion as being false. - WT 11/15/63

  • teejay
    teejay

    Scully,

    Good googlie-goo!! You've got to be kidding!!? There must be a stack of fresh Watchtowers (her bi-monthly allotment) laying around here somewhere. I'll surely have to crack one of those open and read this for myself.

    If it's as you say, the 'softening' of the WTS on this issue surprises even me. What in the hell is going on in Brooklyn, anyways? Where are all those hardliners? Damn, they keep this up, and I might hafta re-join the movement...

    SIKE!!!!

    Thanks for the tip, Scully. I'll check it out.

    tj

  • anewperson
    anewperson

    This was presented before but is updated:

    CHRISTMAS -- THE REAL TRUTH: More recent scholarly studies prove that the Christmas Tree is from the Tree of Eternal Life (Ge 2:9, 3:22) depicted in church plays of the Middle Ages, not Luther or Druid tree-worshippers, although outdated articles for example in World Book Encyclopedia still repeat the legends and Luther may have originated the use of candles attached to Christmas trees.

    The giant cedars of Lebanon used to build the temple at Jerusalem themselves had bright green needles with tan-colored cones, and John 10:22-3 says Christ visited the successor temple during the Jewish "Festival of Dedication," namely Channukah, during winter. Also called the Festival of Lights, it had singing, the carrying of tree branches, homes filled with lights and joy. Celebrated 8 days each time, its date varies yearly but the first Channukah was December 25, making it an even more likely source for the December 25 celebration than Rome's Saturnalia which came later in the month. Some believe Christ was actually born about Oct 1, which would mean Mary conceived 9 months previously, that is about or on December 25. Indeed count 9 months backwards from October to see for yourself. As to Santa Claus, no, he did not come from a vaguely known Asian god who descended chimneys to bring gifts or Siberian wizards but instead the Christian Nicholaus a famous gift-giver in Turkey in the Middle Ages.

    In fact Christ himself was wrongly attacked as a "glutton and drunkard" simply for believing in a good time (Mt 11:19). He once turned water to wine at a wedding party in Cana (Jn 2:1-11), told followers to invite needy persons to parties (Lu 14:13-14), and accepted gifts including expensive nard oil. Interestingly, Revelation 1:14 even describes the resurrected Christ's hair as like "white wool" or "snow," his cloak was scarlet-colored (red with a bluish tinge--Mt 27:28), and white symbolized purity. True, all that just coincidentally reminds one of Santa Claus, but do note that the earliest Christians enjoyed balanced merriment at "love feasts" (Jude 12), the angels celebrated Christ's birth (Lu 2), and Job's children had enjoyed birthdays (Job 1:3, 3:1, 3).

    Most Christmas trees are topped by a star remindful of the Christ star. According to John Mosley's The Christmas Star (1985) from September 3 BC to June 2 BC Jupiter, known as "the royal planet" passed Regulus "the king star" in the constellation Leo, reversed then passed again, turned and passed a 3rd time. By June 17 Jupiter and Regulus were so close they seemed a single star when seen by the eye. This then is one intriguing possible source for the Christ star in the Bible.

    Before Christ's birth unspecified men called "magi" in Biblical Greek came from the East first to Jerusalem (Mt 2:1-2) then went on to find the Christ child in Bethlehem. Some translations render the word magi as astrologers because its root like the word "magician" is linked to the idea of being a person of great might but although magi may refer to people who try to predict the future by observing the stars, using omens and consulting spirit beings as forbidden by God at Deuteronomy 18:10-12, it can also refer to people who worked to predict future weather patterns, good times to plant and harvest, buy and sell crops, etc via careful observation of the clouds, stars and other natural phenomena and with very little to absolutely no special focus on the occult at all. So for solid reasons some Bible translations continue to translate magi as simply "wise men" or "stargazers" and this is also supported by the Bible’s positively saying they brought gifts for Christ then also protected him by leaving without telling his location to King Herod who wickedly desired to slay him. The oldest traditions of oral and written nature have called the wise men "kings," and Mesopotamia (Chaldea/Babylonia) did have sub-kings ruling city-states, often with the best education then possible.

    Those who kept their families from celebrating Christmas should not be condemned if they acted out of lack of accurate knowledge in the past but also no one should claim that those who do celebrate the birth of Christ are out of harmony with the Bible even as the preceding information proves. Please read and meditate on what Paul writes at Colossians 2:16.

    The writers are part of a nonprofit mostly house-and-computer-based fellowship called Jah Christians, part of the international Free Christians movement which directly emails the Free Christians Newsletter for free to nearly 1000 persons in all belief systems: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jahchristian, or contact [email protected] for a free subscription today.

  • metatron
    metatron

    The days of the week are pagan (Thursday =Thor's day)

    The names of the months are pagan (August = Augustus)

    Algebra and Mathematics are pagan (al jabr in arabic, number
    systems from Babylon)

    Dollar bills use spiritistic symbols

    The Watchtower hypocrites pick and chose their paganism

    metatron

  • Room 215
    Room 215

    Hi all,

    In common with all of you, I would applaud any ``softening,'' in the rigid anti-holiday stance of the WT; but alas, it would seem to be wishful thinking to expect a complete reversal of the ban.

    Among the things Brooklyn detests the most is being ignored. For that reason, so much of their policy amounts to a bid to stand out and be noticed-- being differnt for the sole sake of being different-- to ``stand out.'' That's why the observance of even the most innocuous of holidays, i.e. America's Thanksgiving, Mothers' Day, Fathers' Day, etc., are frowned upon if not banned outright.

    In the case of Christmas (and Easter, for that matter), the elements of paganism grafted onto these holidays offer the WT a convenient pretext to condemn and forbid under pain of shunning.

    Yet the basic Christian sacrament of baptism, a practice clearly derirved from extra-Biblical (i.e. heathen) roots, is a glaring example of a pagan custom sanctified in its adoption by no less than Christ himself, because of its approriateness as a symbol of dying to a former life and being renewed (``born again';) to a new one.

  • Cygnus
    Cygnus

    Don't you think there is a rather large difference between secular, everyday items of daily involvement and borrowed _religious_ traditions assimilated into so-called "Christian" worship?

    Wedding rings certainly _are_ different. A couple will consider their marriage sacred, and symbolize their union with rings, but how does that compromise their religious fundamentals at all? It doesn't. However, faking generosity and complying with the LIE that Jesus was born on Dec 25, indeed making it some event that primitive Christians never gave such importance, well, I can certainly understand why some people who want to serve Jehovah "in spirit and in truth" would reject such holy-days as a detriment to their exercising faith by means of accurate knowledge.

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