Babylon is not the Symbolic CIty of False Religion.

by proplog2 73 Replies latest jw friends

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    Is Babylon Really the Symbolic City of False Religion?

    The ancient city of Babylon was apolitical entity- NOT - a religious entity.

    The Watchtower claims that "The roots of today's false religions go back to the ancient city of Babylon." Most archaeologists today would disagree with this simplistic idea. In the past there have been archaeologists who have played to an anti-catholic audience who actively promoted the idea that the Roman Catholic Church is the Great Harlot. These individuals are generally considered to be cranks much like those who try to promote the idea that ancient astronauts influenced the symbols found in religious artifacts from all over the world.

    Does the fact that Babylon had as many as 50 temples make it any more religious than Egypt? Instead, that fact highlights the wealth of these people who could afford so many great structures. Does the symbolism used in worship prove that all religion originally radiated from the same geographical region or is there perhaps a chance that we are observing archetypes that emerge naturally from the human situation? Common symbols used in worship are mother, father, family, sexual organs, breasts, flowers, beads, rings, sun, moon stars, dualities, trinities, quaternities etc. It seems natural for uninformed prescientific people to worship these things. The Jewish religion was not without items and rituals that centered around harvests, reproduction, Lunar and Solar cycles. The temple even faced east like most pagan temples. And why would bulls be involved in the decoration of the temple. You would think that Jehovah would make sure that anything that would remotely remind the Israelites of Baal would be considered an unnecessary temptation.

    Even the incident at Babel was not strictly a religious effort. There was a strong hint of nationalism as a dominant motivating factor. It is a safe guess that religion was involved because humans are naturally religious. However, the stated purpose for building the tower was not just for worship but that they could "make a celebrated name for themselves." Of course a nation's Gods become beneficiaries of the success or failure of those giving them worship.

    You are not going to find evidence in archaeology that proves Babylonian religion influenced all the ancient religious practices. Even more important is the fact that you can't find scriptures that indicate that all false religion came from Babylon. In fact how would you explain these scriptures if all false religion came from Babylon?

    Joshua 24:2

    "And Joshua went on to say to all the people: "This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said, 'It was on the other side of the River (Mesopotamia) that Your forefathers dwelt a long time ago, Terah the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, and they used to serve other gods.

    De28:64

    "And Jehovah will certainly scatter you among all the peoples from the one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, and there you will have to serve other gods whom you have not known, neither you nor your forefathers, wood and stone."

    The indication from these two scriptures is that the familiar gods were in Mesopotamia. If Babylon had this over-arching influence throughout the world there would have been nothing unfamiliar to them.

    But now read Deuteronomy 32:17 where the indication is that new gods are coming on line all the time.

    De 32:17

    "They went sacrificing to demons, not to God, Gods whom they had not known, New ones who recently came in, With whom YOUR forefathers were not acquainted.

    The common thread of all false religion is not some city in the ancient world but ignorance. Another argument that tries to establish Babylon as a symbol of false religions is that since there are scriptures that refer to the graven images of Babylon therefore Babylon was a religious entity and Babylon the Great is therefore also a religious entity.

    To begin with, this premise is false. The Babylon with "graven images" quoted from Jeremiah and Isaiah was not a religious entity but a political entity. Just as many references are made to the images and idols of Egypt. Does that make Egypt a religious entity? So it does not follow that Babylon the Great is automatically a religious entity. Without any specific statement that says Babylon the Great is a religious entity it would be unreasonable to conclude that Babylon the Great is anything but an entity of the same type as its namesake.

    You can quote all the scriptures about how religious Babylon was and that doesn't change the fact that Babylon was a political entity. It needs to be pointed out that most of the 18th chapter of Revelation deals with the wealth of Babylon the Great. However, it is interesting to note that the USA is simultaneously the wealthiest entity on earth and like ancient Babylon is one of the most religious of the wealthy nations on earth.

    Although there are several references to Babylon's graven images - we don't want to overlook Bible references that highlight Babylon's reputation for being a wealthy and beautiful city.

    Jer51:13

    "O woman residing on abounding waters, abundant in treasures, your end has come, the measure of your profit making.

    Isa13:19

    "And Babylon, the decoration of kingdoms, the beauty of the pride of the Chaldeans, must become as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah."

    Insight on the Scriptures page 235 has this to say about the ancient city of Babylon

    "This sprawling metropolis astride the water course of the Euphrates was a commercial and industrial center of world trade. More than an important manufacturing center, it was a commercial depot for trade between the peoples of the East and the West, both by land and by sea. Thus her fleet had access to the Persian Gulf and the seas far beyond."

    It is this wealth that is most notable in Revelation 18. Go ahead and count the verses in Revelation 18 that refer to Babylon the Great's wealth and divide it by the number of verses in that chapter. Approximately 40% is devoted to describing her wealth.

    Now count the verses that refer to Gods, images, altars, idols etc.

    It is clear that wealth is the most distinguishing feature of Babylon that is carried over to the discussion of Babylon The Great.

    How Important is it to accurately identify Babylon the Great? The Watchtower publication -Babylon The Great Has Fallen- says:

    "FACED WITH SOLVING A MYSTERY Our getting at the solution of the mystery is important for us. Why so? Because through the pages of the Bible we hear the rousing command for those who desire to be God's People to get out of Babylon, to flee out of her for the sake of their lives, losing no time...It is plain that there is need for us to know with an accuracy that leaves no doubts in our mind."

    The Babylon book devotes hundred of pages to try to show that Babylon The Great is the World Empire of False Religion. Rather than solving this great mystery the Watchtower introduces a variation on a theme that originates with anti-Catholic/protestant thinking of 17th & 18th centuries.

    Babylon the Great - great WHAT? Religion or City?

    It is reasonable to believe that if an entity derives its name from another entity they would both be of the same class UNLESS there is evidence to indicate otherwise. For instance New York has a connection with "Old" York. You would never assume that New York was some other entity than a city. In the absence of any evidence saying that BTG is a religious entity there is strong reason to believe that the distinction between them is primarily one of magnitude. Their essence would be the same. Babylon was "essentially" a political entity therefore Babylon the Great is also a political entity. What other essence does Revelation indicate they share? Judging from a reading of the 18th Chapter of Revelation they both were rich. Since there is no reference to quantity of temples, priests, sacrifices, gods or any other object that is usually considered of a sacred or religious nature therefore in speaking about the Greatness of Babylon the Great it must be referring to the wealth.

    Isaiah 47:1

    Come down and sit down in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon. Sit down on the earth where there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans. For you will not experience again that people call you delicate and dainty.

    Isaiah 47:5

    Sit down silently and come into the darkness, O daughter of the Chaldeans; for you will not experience again that people call you Mistress of Kingdoms.

    Daniel 4:30

    The king was answering and saying: "Is not this Babylon the Great, that I myself have built for the royal house with the strength of my might and for the dignity of my majesty?"

    There are no significant religious words descriptive of Babylon the Great because there are no significant religious descriptors of the ancient city of Babylon. Check it out in your Bible. You will find that there is no more mention of the God's of Babylon then there is the Gods of Egypt, Assyria or the Philistines. The chart below lists all the scriptures in the Bible that refer to Gods, idols & images of either Babylon or Egypt. You can easily see that there is nothing significant about the use of these terms in describing ancient Babylon that would distinguish it from Egypt.

    Gods~Egypt

    Gods~Babylon

    Ex 12:12

    Isaiah 21:9

    Josh 24:14

    Jeremiah 43:12

    Jeremiah 43:13

    Jeremiah 44:8

    Jeremiah 46:25

    Images~EgyptImages~Babylon
    Ezek. 20:7Isaiah 21:9
    Ezek. 20:8Jeremiah 50:2
    Ezek. 30:13

    Idols~EgyptIdols~Babylon
    Isaiah 19:1 Isaiah 48:14
    Isaiah 19:3Jeremiah 50:2
    Ezekiel 20:7Jeremiah 51:47
    Ezekiel 20:8Ezekiel 21:21
    Ezekiel 30:13

    This is an exhaustive list where the Bible specifically refers to gods, idols, & images with referecne to the respective cities. Egypt should be considered twice as religious as Babylon on this basis. The most significant thing here is that no references in the Greek Scriptures, especially in Revelation, show up in this search.

    Babylon's religious significance in the Bible is a fabrication of the Watchtower to try to make their World Empire of False Religion concept workable.

  • candidlynuts
    candidlynuts
    Since there is no reference to quantity of temples, priests, sacrifices, gods or any other object that is usually considered of a sacred or religious nature therefore in speaking about the Greatness of Babylon the Great it must be referring to the wealth.

    good essay !

    the above quote..... money is the root of all evil. so maybe babylon symbolizes wealth not false religion...darn the watchtower is gonna be suprised on judgement day when they stand before god with billions of dollars and 6,000.000 believers.

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    I wrote this for a web page I used to have back in 1997.

    Perhaps it will be useful if you get into a discussion with JW's about Babylon the Great in connection with Kingdom News 37 that is being distributed.

  • Arthur
    Arthur
    You are not going to find evidence in archaeology that proves Babylonian religion influenced all the ancient religious practices. Even more important is the fact that you can't find scriptures that indicate that all false religion came from Babylon. In fact how would you explain these scriptures if all false religion came from Babylon?

    This is a good point as well. The Watchtower Society is alwasy refering to various relgious teachings as "Babylonish teachings". Most basic religious doctrines such as the immortal soul, the godly triad, and a spirit under-world (or hell) pre-date the Babylonish empire by thousands of years.

    As one example; the ancient Aryan culture of India had spawned religious teachings as the foundation of Hinduism as far back (according to some historians) as 5,000 B.C.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Proplog2,

    Excellent discussion! I enjoy your points, and find that you raise important issues and questions that makes me rethink just what Babylon the Great may be.

    Revelation states that Babylon the Great is a female, for she is the mother of all harlots, and she commits fornication with the Kings of the the world, and she rules over the kingdoms of this world. This suggests that she could be something similar, but different from the worlds political entities. Could she be a great religious conglomerate like the World Council of Churches? Could she be the United Nations? Or could she be the empire of world merchants, big business, and global corporations?

    Revelation states that she has wealth, and that merchants of the world sell her goods and that in her are the sound of the finest craftsman, etc. It is the merchants that wail and cry at her destruction. This could refer to a wealthy political entity as you note, engaged in trade, or it could refer to the great churches and the fine art and craftsmanship that is found in the church buildings. Today's churches are less ornate and more functional, so perhaps the wealth is in her facilities as a whole, hospitals, universities, etc.

    Revelation also says that in her no more will be found the bride and bridegroom. People get married in churches. Revelation says that she is clothed in purple and scarlet and fine royal linen ... a good possible reference to the way clergy, especially my beloved Catholic Cardinals dress themselves. The Catholic Church is also a political entity, and the Vatican is a sovereign state, with the Pope as its head. She is also a city, and she held sway over the kingdoms for many centuries.

    Catholicism today, however, is not a broken harlot who has fallen, but rather, she has gained a new perspective and is much better focused on Christ and doing Christian works. Instead of her waters drying up as noted in Revelation, she is among the fastest growing churches in many parts of the world, including the USA.

    I completely appreciate the points you raise, and you have certainly raised enough valid issues that the topic deserves much more exploration to determine just what Babylon the Great is. Ros, who posts on Channel C has made good points suggesting that Babylon the Great is herself the Merchants and big business and corporations of this world. She can make a compelling case ... although I find some points that do not fit her hypothesis, she has made a better case for merchantilism being Babylon the Great, than the Society made for it being the world empire of false religion.

    Jim Whitney

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    Amazing:

    I have my theories about Babylon the Great but my main purpose in this thread is to weaken the Watchtower argument that it is religion.

    Jehovah's Witnesses have relied on protestant ideas for explaining Babylon the Great. Don't rely on wikpedia for a good explanation. It is conaminated with JW thinking on this subject.

    I like the Webster definition

    Main Entry: Bab·y·lon
    Pronunciation: 'ba-b&-"län, -l&n
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Babylon, ancient city of Babylonia
    : a city devoted to materialism and sensual pleasure

    It is a very materialistic political entity. In the ancient world, a city was often associated with a state or important power and referred to its influence beyond its walls.

    The preterists like to believe that Babylon the Great is Rome. That really doesn't explain anything it merely empties the concept of any practical significance.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    The preterists like to believe that Babylon the Great is Rome. That really doesn't explain anything it merely empties the concept of any practical significance.

    By "practical" I assume you mean "futuristic" (or "contemporary"... to us).

    The burden of proof rests with those who affirm that a text which presents itself as short-term prophecy (Revelation 1:3; 22:6ff) should mean anything over 19 centuries later.

    Btw the usual Roman reading agrees with much of your analysis about the preeminence of political and commercial features over religious ones -- with the central exception of imperial worship which is at least as political as religious.

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    Narkissos:

    I am ambivalent about the value of the Bible. I can't believe in the personal God that it portrays. Even Jesus' role isn't clear and there seems to be inconsistencies in how he is characterized.

    Prophecy gets my attention because it presents the possibility of settling the issue of whether the Bible can help mankind.

    As long as there seems to be a prophecy in fullfillment (one shoe dropped) I'll glance around for something significant. The problem here is avoiding the seduction of making false predictions.

    The preterist view is attempt at premature closure. Why do I say premature? Their explanations fray at the edges. For example - What is the Wild Beast and Ten Kings that destroy Babylon the Great? Basically the preterists are saying "Don't worry about it".

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Hi proplog,

    The preterist view is attempt at premature closure. Why do I say premature? Their explanations fray at the edges. For example - What is the Wild Beast and Ten Kings that destroy Babylon the Great? Basically the preterists are saying "Don't worry about it".

    Imo the "preterist" view fails not as "premature closure," but by desperately trying to turn around the obvious conclusion which serious exegesis and history imply: the futuristic (yet explicitly short-term) part of the prophecy failed: Nero did not come back, the Parthians and other barbarians did not conquer Rome -- even the official "fall of Rome" in 476 AD is far off the scope of Revelation.

    Prophecy gets my attention because it presents the possibility of settling the issue of whether the Bible can help mankind.

    As long as there seems to be a prophecy in fullfillment (one shoe dropped) I'll glance around for something significant.

    I guess I can understand the sentimental reasons behind this "scruple" -- especially from an xJW. What I don't understand is the epistemology behind it. Whether there is a God out there or not, world history doesn't look like a movie shot in advance and "readable" anywhere. I can admit the possibility of short-term predictions coming true with a margin of error -- as in weather forecasts. What doesn't make sense to me (and I suspect doesn't make sense to you either) is the idea of news headlines hidden in advance between the lines of a millenia-old book.

    Plus, I really wonder how that would "help mankind"...

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Of course Babylon was the city of Rome for the author of Revelation, and preterism has nothing to do with this. Rome was at the time the "great city that has authority over all the rulers of the earth" (17:18), it was built on "seven hills" (17:9), it was represented as a woman in the emperor cult (the goddess Roma), this goddess was officially represented as sitting on the seven hills (17:9), this goddess had a secret name known only to her priests (17:5), it was Rome that was responsible for persecutions against Christians (17:6), it was Rome that had a series of kings in which a ruler from the past (i.e. Nero) was expected to return in the future (17:10-11), it was a city that was the center of an international trade network (18:11), all the trade goods listed in 18:12-13 were exactly the items that came from all over the Roman Empire to be traded in Rome, and the name "Babylon" was elsewhere applied to "Rome" in Jewish literature of the time (even in apocalyptic texts that similarly relate the return of Nero). This reflects the fact that both cities destroyed Jerusalem and its Temple. I find it hard to believe that a first-century reader of Revelation would draw any other conclusion.

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