The tyranny of religious experience

by Narkissos 54 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    In the discussion of religious or mystical subjects on this board, the "experiential vs. intellectual" issue often comes up. While mostly those on the "experiential side" of the debate are content to share their experience without imposing it on others, sometimes the appeal to "experience" sounds like a subtle way of disqualifying the comments of "intellectuals" who cannot know what they are speaking about as long as they haven't got the "right experience".

    I remember once discussing that with a Welsh Evangelical lady: she complained that Pentecostals and Charismatics in her neighbourhood dismissed her views because she was not "baptised in the Spirit" according to their definition of the term. I pointed to her that her fellow churchgoers were doing exactly the same thing when they dismissed the views of "unbelievers," or traditional believers who didn't claim to be "born again" in the Evangelical style.

    Here the issue of qualitative or quantitative appraisal of religious/spiritual experience steps in. I have met a few "spiritual junkies" who seemed to be always unsatisfied with their present experience and were defenseless before people who claimed a "higher one," and as a result were going from church to church in the seemingly unending quest of "it". Sometimes they ended up in very dangerous cults. In its own (poor) way, the WT uses the same trigger by claiming "accurate knowledge" which is supposedly absent from other churches.

    Did you sometimes feel pressured by a similar "experiential blackmail," either from others or from yourself? Did you give in or resist? If you did resist, how did you justify it to yourself?

    And to the religious experientialists (?), I'd ask: shouldn't you count the absence in others of an experience similar to yours as an equally valid "religious experience"? Did that lead you to question your own experience?

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    About two and a half years ago I had a "spiritual experience" that put all my previous ones into context.
    I don't seek such experiences anymore (though they are still a reasonably regular occurance).

    Over three years ago I met a man of whom I would say it was evident he was deeply spiritual. He had no experience to recount, whatsoever. AT the time I was amazed, however now I am unphased.

    Having met spiritual people of great variety, Christian and otherwise, I don't make any single thing a touchstone. It seems to be as variable as personality, and hence I no longer pigeon-hole people (nor do I tolerate being pigeon-holed).

    I don't tolerate much claptrap from the "speaking in tongues" brigade, either. Fortunately most aren't like that, but the few misinformed ones get blasted out of the water.

    Great thread, Didier...

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Nark,

    Most of those in the realm of christianity interpet thier "religious" experience in terms of the indoctrination they have recieved. Christianity's characteristic exclusivistictivity(?) tend to make them close minded as to the meaning of thier experience. The fact is these experiences do not happen to only christians.

    For 10's of thousands of years (and no doubt much longer) ecstatic experiences, have been part of our species. While these experiences may be transformative, healing, and mystical they are often wrongly interpeted by christians especially the Fundamentalist type to be a confirmation of the indoctrination they have recieved.

    But sometimes the experience leads out of the box thinking too. It all depends on the experience and the amount of indoctrination previously.

  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch
    Did you sometimes feel pressured by a similar "experiential blackmail," either from others or from yourself? Did you give in or resist? If you did resist, how did you justify it to yourself?

    Yes and no. I could easily dismiss any claimed experience by the handful of charismatic co-workers and university students I knew because of what I learned about them. From what I could see they were about as conservatively moral as I was, but not any more empathetic, nor any more compassionate (so that means that quite a bit was left to be desired). They seemed to be more judgmental and self-righteous than I was, which to me was also against their really being affected by any real divine or spiritual force.

    But I was drawn to (in fact I wanted to experience it too) the kind of joy, peace and all round niceness that came from the couple of catholic mystics, and one sufi I also knew. They all claimed "feeling" God's presence. To a lesser degree there were also a small band of JW pioneers that I would end up going out to service with who were sincere and genuine people too. I ended up trying to spark the spiritual in me (if there was any) within the JWs, but also having different ideas and beliefs which I kept to myself. I hoped my baptism would change something, but nothing came of it. Maybe there's nothing supernatural to those experiences or nothing I can access. But at least a few people are better for them.

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Midget,

    Maybe there's nothing supernatural to those experiences or nothing I can access. But at least a few people are better for them.

    I think Transpersonal Psychology which Carl Jung is considered a pioneer of,,has alot of sensible thing to say about these "experiences".

    Here's a site that seems to be informative:

    http://www.itp.edu/about/tp.cfm

    Of course the subject still has much to be understood Jung and other can not be consider the final word, but atleast they give insight and some intelligence on the subject of religious experience.

  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch

    Hey Frankiespeaking,

    I've read some of Jung's writings on the collective unconscious, archettypes etc. I don't use absolutes against the idea or belief, because I like to think I'm somewhat open-minded.

    Either way, Narkissos has focussed on the most important thing about these experiences, and thats how it affects people's behaviours. For the most part, I've seen mostly neutral impacts on the people that claim them. They are a bit more pro-active but more annoying than helpful because they act a bit more elitist and judgemental. But a small number are just so genuinely good and altruistic afterwards, that I can't be cynical about them. Thats saying alot dammit! I still think its most likely just in their heads though.

  • gumby
    gumby

    Interpretation, honesty, emotional stability.....all play a part in the religious experience.

    I went to a hypnotist to quit smoking.....many were hypnotised, but I wasn't.

    I went to a Journey concert....many had their eyes closed with their hands above their heads and a smile on their face as they were "caught up in the moment"....I wasn't. My eyes were opened, hands down, and a serious look on my face as I "studied" the band and it's members.

    The point is....everyone reacts to emotion different and some even create emotion themselves. I was NEVER "born again in the spirit" as many hold claim. No tears, no feeling, no force came over me.....nothing......ever! I had no born again story for anyone....I'm not the type.

    Remember "Beatlemania"

    Gumby

  • what_Truth?
    what_Truth?

    It's funny. My wife and I were having a similar conversation the other day. She's a United Pennicostal and I'm a musician. She was telling me how it felt to "get the holy ghost and talk in tounges" I said "it's funny, but I feel the exact same way when I'm on stage doing a show". She just rolled her eyes and said "Anyways...."

    Personally I beleive that the best way to experience God is to meditate on a part of your body down to the smallest electron, then consider the force that keeps the who thing together. Realise that force is the one and same that shaped your brain is such a subtle way that it gives you your own personality deliberately and not because of some random accident then you have taken the first step in realising your God given purpose in life. The next step is to realise what makes you unique, to celebrate those qualities, and finally to find a way to share them with the rest of the world.

    At least that's the understanding I gained the last time I did mushrooms several years ago.

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Gum,

    You seem to be a hard nut to crack. When it come to ecstatic experiences. Our species has been doing this for along time. So thier must be a way to break your resistance,, or crack a hole in your ego.

    Try circular breathing along with some loud repetative shamonic druming that usually works for most people. But have someone around to sort of keep an eye on you or only do it as far as you want to go.

    What,

    Yeah, music is definitely one way. I play guitar (not very good) but sometimes when I keep repeating a difficult phrase maybe 2 or 3 bars over and over with my head phones on I zone out and experience bliss. Have you ever had an out of the body experience while playing where you felt like someone else was playing your instrument?

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    :or crack a hole in your ego.

    Oh please.

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