Refuting the WT Mediator Doctrine...

Confucious

Just something to think about.

When I tell the Dubs that I don't need to listen to an organization, because Jesus is the only mediator.

That if you ALREADY have a mediator, that you don't need ANOTHER one (the org.)

So THEIR response is...

"Well, Jesus is the Mediator for the 144,000 annointed ones also."

SO, under that logic, wouldn't it be true if YOU were one of the annointed, then YOU WOULDN'T NEED an organization.

Your thoughts???

Gopher

I don't remember the WTS specifically claiming to the "mediator", although they do claim that without them you cannot gain salvation. Sounds about the same, right?

Their logic for claiming to be "the organization that leads you to God" is based partly on Philip's conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch, who was quoted to have said "how can I have ever learned, without someone to guide me?" So (according to the WTS) Philip, as a representative of "God's organization", was able to teach this eunuch "the truth" about Jesus and baptize him immediately (although JW's never follow that and baptize anyone immediately for confessing faith in Jesus).

Another argument they use is 1 Corinthians 1:10 where Paul wrote about how important doctrinal unity is. So, the argument goes, without a central organization to promote doctrinal unity, there can be no unity.

Problem is, the doctrine of an organization is never expressed in the New Testament. Only a "brotherhood", but not an "organization".

The JW's feel that an organization is implied. Also, because they feel they can prove that Satan has an "organization", therefore it is an imitation of God's "organization". Satan allegedly uses his "organization" to mislead God's people.

The JW's do, in fact, perform reverence to their organization and its leaders, who are viewed as having some connection with God. That would be "mediation" whether they call it that or not.

blondie

Well, I think several WTS thoughts are being mixed together.

One, according the them only the 144,000 need a mediator, that just as Moses mediated the Law covenant for the literal Israelites, so Jesus (the Greater Moses) mediates the new covenant for spiritual Israelites (the anointed, the 144,000, etc.).

Never does the WTS put any of the GC or other sheep into the mix.

The FDS (anointed, remnant) are said to act as a "channel" not a mediator between the GC and Jesus.

I have found with debating with JWs or talking to them not to let them have a red herring to switch the focus of the discussion to.

The WTS assumption here that has to be proven first is that there are only 144,000 spiritual Israelites.

There certainly was no set number of Israelites in the case of Moses' mediation.

For many years, the WTS taught that the 144,000 and the great crowd were both groups that would live in heaven.

It could take another several pages to present arguments regarding whether 144,000 was meant to be a literal number. I personally don't think it was meant that way, just another way to describe the same group; or perhaps contrasting the Jewish Christians with the Gentile Christians.

Does the FDS try to usurp Christ's role in regard to the GC/OS? Yes, by using the weasel word "channel."

w94 10/1 The Bible?A Book Meant to Be Understood

CHANNEL

TO UNDERSTANDING THE BIBLE

JESUS assured us that after his death and resurrection, he would raise up a "faith-ful and discreet slave" that would serve as his channel of communication. (Matthew 24:45-47) The apostle Paul identified this channel to the Ephesian Christians when he wrote that "there might be made known through the congregation the greatly diversified wisdom of God, according to the eternal purpose that he formed in connection with the Christ, Jesus our Lord." (Ephesians 3:10, 11) It was the congregation of anointed Christians, born at Pentecost 33 C.E., that was entrusted with the "things revealed." (Deuteronomy 29:29) As a group, anointed Christians serve as the faithful and discreet slave. (Luke 12:42-44) Their appointed assignment from God is to provide spiritual understanding of the "things revealed."

Even as Bible prophecy pointed forward to the Messiah, it also directs us to the close-knit body of anointed Christian Witnesses that now serve as the faithful and discreet slave. It helps us to understand the Word of God. All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the "greatly diversified wisdom of God" can become known only through Jehovah?s channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave.?John 6:68.

The FDS starts out first as the total group of anointed Christians, but we know that women are not in this group as the "channel." Then it becomes only the male anointed, then only those selected by the self-identified GB in NYC. No advice is solicited from male anointed outside NYC (or very little).

Farkel

The whole notion of man needing a "mediator" through a "ransom" is so absurd, it's laughable.

God had two groups of children: two retarded (human children) and millions of normal (heavenly) children. His two retarded children (Adam and Eve) screws up, so he makes them even MORE retarded and tells them their lives are going to be miserable and then they'll die. Then these two really retarded children have more really retarded children and they in turn have even more retarded children, and God tells them their lives are going to be totally screwed because of what their ancestors did and then they will die.

After a while God begins to feel bad about how unfair he was to retarded children who were so retarded and who were going to die because of what someone ELSE did. So he devises this most excellent and totally logical plan: he is going to take his oldest and most powerful normal child, make him become retarded by being born as a human, make him suffer, have him KILLED, and then make him normal again.

That's sort of like someone kidnapping your child and says he will return your child only if you go kill someone else's child.

By the way, Jesus never said he was a "mediator" for man. Only Paul said that (to my recollection).

Farkel

myelaine

By the way, Jesus never said he was a "mediator" for man. Only Paul said that (to my recollection).

Farkel, Jesus did say that no one comes to the Father except by way of Him. He also said that no one would come to Him unless the Father drew him to Jesus.

michelle

myelaine

The very fact that the GB has made it clear that they have exclusive rights to "the ramson" shows that they have taken over the position of mediator,whether they admit it or not. They have effectively removed the "My Father draws them to Jesus part of the Gospel"

It is terribly sad to know that people are so deceived, because the consequence according to God's Word is death.

michelle

Gopher

It is terribly sad to know that people are so deceived, because the consequence according to God's Word is death.

I thought a loving God would pardon ignorance. If the consequence for lack of knowledge really is death, then how is it fair that some people, due to circumstances (being born into a cult or being born in the wrong region of the world) would never find out this "truth" that would "save" them?

Christianity's exclusivity along with its teachings of death for non-adherents makes me shy away.

LittleToe

Gopher:

Christianity's exclusivity along with its teachings of death for non-adherents makes me shy away.

Ya mean no other belief system teaches that people die?
Shucks!!
I thought that even atheists believed in that!

myelaine

gopher,

You are right God has made allowance for people that never get to know Jesus because of the circumstances they were born into.

Galatians 5:22-23 Gods laws of the spirit

Hebrews 10 :14-18 people showing the fruit of the Spirit (because the laws are written on their heart) are forgiven

He that lives by the Spirit of God's laws, dies physically within the spirit of those laws.

He that does not live by the spirit of God's laws ...Matt 25:46

michelle

Farkel

michelle,

:: By the way, Jesus never said he was a "mediator" for man. Only Paul said that (to my recollection).

: Farkel, Jesus did say that no one comes to the Father except by way of Him. He also said that no one would come to Him unless the Father drew him to Jesus.

Right. But the WTS uses the term "mediator" and its variants in a broader scope than requiring the penitent to approach God in prayer through Jesus.

They use expressions like "the mediating power of Christ's ransom", also. That's how they tie mediation and the "ransom" together. As I said, Jesus never claimed to be a "mediator" through any "ransom" he may have offered. Since the "ransom" doctrine is patently ridiculous, any claim that it is a "mediation" between God and man is also ridiculous.

Farkel

Refuting the WT Mediator Doctrine...

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