Disagreeing With God's Representative

by Euphemism 18 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Euphemism
    Euphemism

    It's been a while since I posted anything biblical... Christianity is not really my cup of tea anymore, except from a purely academic perspective. However, I just had an interesting thought today.

    The JWs always say that you should submit your judgment to the organization. When I was talking to the elders who were investigating me for apostasy, I asked them: "So what should a brother do if he conscientiously believes that some teaching of the organization is unbiblical, and he cannot support it?" The elder's response: "I don't think he can presume to know better than the organization."

    The biblical counterexample that occurred to me today was the story of Jehu's campagin against the Baal worshippers. From the NWT:

    2 King 10:18,19,25-28
    Further, Je´hu collected all the people together and said to them: "A´hab, on the one hand, worshiped Ba´al a little. Je´hu, on the other hand, will worship him a great deal. So now call all the prophets of Ba´al, all his worshipers and all his priests to me. Do not let a single one be missing, because I have a great sacrifice for Ba´al. Anyone that is missing will not keep living." As for Je´hu, he acted slyly, for the purpose of destroying the worshipers of Ba´al.
    ...
    And it came about that as soon as he finished rendering up the burnt offering, Je´hu immediately said to the runners and the adjutants: "Come in, strike them down! Do not let a single one go out." And the runners and the adjutants began to strike them down with the edge of the sword and to throw them out, and they kept going as far as the city of the house of Ba´al. Then they brought out the sacred pillars of the house of Ba´al and burned each one. Further, they pulled down the sacred pillar of Ba´al and pulled down the house of Ba´al, and they kept it set aside for privies down to this day.

    Thus Je´hu annihilated Ba´al out of Israel.

    Now let's say an Israelite had said: "Well I think it's wrong to worship Baal. But King Jehu is Jehovah's anointed representative, so if he says it's alright, it must be alright!" Based on the Watchtower's reasoning, that's what they should have done. They should have subordinated their own judgment to that of the divinely appointed king. But if they'd done that... they would have been killed!

    So according to the Bible as understood by the Witnesses, a worshipper of Jehovah could be put to death for listening to "Jehovah's anointed representative" instead of his own reading of God's law.

    So much for the GB's claims!

  • kes152
    kes152

    Greetings,

    Just as the kings of Israel had become corrupt so that the badness of their dealings corrupted through the inhabited earth, so also have corruption permeated the organization and even the crowd of followers have become filled with their corruption.

  • mustang
    mustang

    Good show, Euph!!!

    Ever noticed that WTS steers clear of talking much about the JUDGES? Israel ("God's Org" then & frequently used type/antitype/shadow/whatever for "God's BOrg today) was always falling away from the "true worship"/true path; Judges were constantly being raised up to "smite" the rulers to bring things back into line. Seems the rulers were about as arrogant and haughty as Brooklyn.

    Put those prophetic possiblilites in your prophecy-o-graph and turn the crank, Brooklyn!!!

    Mustang

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan
    The elder's response: "I don't think he can presume to know better than the organization."

    No doubt they'd say the same things to Jesus - already have

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    Euph, I remember when I had my arguments with elders back in the day. I used an example similar to yours.

    What did faithful Joe Israelite do during the reign of one of the bad kings? They would have been worshiping Baal, or some other god, turned the temple into false worship, sometimes there was even child sacrifice. So for faithful Joe Israelite to pack up his family and travel to Jerusalem according to the Law would have been foolish, dangerous and moot. For one thing, one of his children might have been sacrified.

    So what did he do? How did he worship his God according to the Law? If he followed his conscience (and good sense) and stayed away, he was in violation of the Law, and an apostate. If he tried to follow the Law on his own, he was in violation of the Law, and an apostate. If he followed Jehovah's spirited directed organization, he would be worshiping a false god, in violation of the Law and an apostate.

    Every one of them hemmed and hawed and stammered. I never could get any answer from them except one who said he believed Jehovah would have provided. But not one of them ever told me what they would have done, or what a "faithful" worshiper of Jehovah should do.

    Chris

  • Sunspot
    Sunspot

    GOOD POST Euphemism!!!!!

    I will c&p THAT for my little "bag of truths" notebook........I won't say my "bag of tricks" because the Watchtower Society already cornered the market on that one :-)

    hugs,

    Annie

  • mustang
    mustang

    Good one, BigTex!!!!

    Bottom line: there is ample PRECEDENT FOR DISAGREEING WITH GOD'S REPRESENTATIVE.

    And if that so called representative is actually PRESUMPTIVE & FALSE, the Christian has a DUTY TO DO SO!!!!

    The "track record" of WTS is much closer to PRESUMPTIVE & FALSE than truthful & proper.

    Personally, my observation has been that of a lack of Holy Spirit emanating from WTS.

    Mustang

  • Euphemism
    Euphemism

    Good one, Big Tex!

    By the time I had my discussion with the elders, I didn't even believe in the Bible anymore, so it was kind of hard to go back to that perspective to argue with them. Now I wonder whether I shouldn't have even tried. But I doubt it would have made much difference one way or the other.

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex
    Now I wonder whether I shouldn't have even tried

    At least now you have peace of mind about it. I look back and know I tried everything I could to reason with those people, and like talking to a brick wall, it just didn't get me anywhere.

    None so blind . . .

    Chris

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    That reminds me of the story of the cured blind man in John 9. The Jews thought it was a big con and saying that the Messiah had done this risked his (and possibly his relatives') expulsion from the synagogue. After repeated questioning that was leading them to an uncomfortable conclusion, the leaders, who couldn't adequately argue against the man's testimony, hurled insults at him and said "You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!"

    Powerful men's attitudes don't change, huh?

    Trying the Jehu example wouldn't have changed anything in your case, Eu. Biblical instances like those are fine when applying them to the past (apostate Israel) and the present (apostate Christendom), but they don't stretch in application to the WTS' 'pure' system of worship. I'll keep Jehu in mind, though

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