144,000 - How do the Dubd arrive at that number?

by sandy 11 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  sandy

  I never did understand how the dubs got this number. Can someone explain it?

  Thanks.......
• 

  Yerusalyim

  They misinterpret (IMHO) a passage from Revelations...7:4 I believe...and ignore the fact REV 7:9mentions the great crowd as being before the throne of God...if God's throine is in heaven...so is the great crowd.
• 

  blondie

  The WTS didn't make up the number. The number is mentioned in 2 spots in Revelation: Revelation chapter 7 and chapter 14. The WTS interprets 144,000 as being a literal number although other numbers in the same chapter are considered symbolic. It is just as likely that the 144,000 and great crowd are the same group of people.

  Revelation 7:1-9 (NWT)

  
  7 After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads."

  4

  And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:

  5

  Out of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand sealed;
  out of the tribe of Reu'ben twelve thousand;
  out of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
  6 out of the tribe of Ash'er twelve thousand;
  out of the tribe of Naph'ta·li twelve thousand;
  out of the tribe of Ma·nas'seh twelve thousand;
  7 out of the tribe of Sim'e·on twelve thousand;
  out of the tribe of Le'vi twelve thousand;
  out of the tribe of Is'sa·char twelve thousand;
  8 out of the tribe of Zeb'u·lun twelve thousand;
  out of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand;
  out of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand sealed.

  9

  After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.

  Revelation 14:1-5 (NWT)

  
  14 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.
• 

  wednesday

  And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:

  It would seem to me that this is the clue that it is symbolic, the 12 tribes are taken form the 12 tribes of Israel.Doesn't jehovah tell Abraham that he will make a great crowd or some such reference , to his seed?
• 

  heathen

  The WTBTS teaches the 144k are those that are called to be kings with christ for the millenial rule post armageddon . They will rule the earth and those who dwell on it for 1000 yrs. The bible is clear that not all people go to heaven when they die but that most people will be resurected to live in a paradise earth ruled by God or judged and cast into eternal damnation . The paradise earth is an important theme of the bible of which most christian religions do not teach about it as jesus was prone to do when he said the meek will inherit the earth in the sermon on the mount .
• 

  amac

  the 12 tribes are taken form the 12 tribes of Israel.

  Actually the JWs teach that this part is symbolical since the list of the 12 tribes in Revelation is different than the OT lists. How they can say part of the chapter is literal and part is symbolical is unexplainable.
• 

  Gopher

  12 symbolic tribes x 12,000 per tribe = 144,000

  of course...

  both the numbers 12 and 12,000 are symbolic....

  HOWEVER...

  when you multiply them together --

  magically!! they become a "LITERAL" number (144,000)!

  Makes perfect sense to me.
• 

  heathen

  I think the whole reasoning is based on the teaching of jesus that there are 2 folds of sheep , the little flock being one and the great crowd mentioned in revelation being the other but the 2 will worship together . It is pretty tricky how they discern that everything but the actual number of 144k is symbolic , it's probly because the city of new jerusalem is depicted with 12 gates and depending on which one the anointed enter will determine the actual tribe they are associated with . The apostles were prone to calling the early christian converts the Israel of God but depending on how you look at it there could possibly be more than 144k anointed between early converts and todays converts or the number was partially filled in the first century pending the rest at the time of the end of the world . What puzzles me as well is that it seems that some women were anointed with holy spirit in the first century but I don't see any way they can be called to rule as kings with christ in the heavenly kingdom . A most intriquing topic that has been hashed and rehashed on the board .
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  A Paduan

  .. and no falsehood was found in their mouths ..

  so not even one dub ?
• 

  JCanon

  The 144K "probably" is a symbolic number, but likely no more than X10 (1,440,000). The context of this group is very symbolic with all being virgins, all men, and 10,000 each from the 12 tribes of Israel. That gives us the leeway to increase that number a bit by some amoung, preferably 10 or 100, etc.

  As far as WHO they are and their function, they are the KING-PRIEST class, the BRIDE OF CHRIST who are used to assist Christ during the millennium. So it is a fixed and limited number and a smaller number than the "great crowd" whom they will be administering to. This group is, though, per JW doctrine, the only group set to go to heaven with the "great crowd" enjoying the fulfillment of God's original paradise on the earth. But they don't actually go to heaven until after the millennium, after Satan is destroyed who is let loose a short time after the millennium, and then after JUDGMENT DAY which follows Satan's death in the lake of fire where all those dead that were not chosen for the 144K now come back to life in the second ressurrection, both "righteous and unrighteous" to be judged. That juding will also be done by the 144K and then after that is done, after death is finally no more, THEN they join Christ in the sky and get spiritual bodies and go up to heaven. (1 Cor 15)

  So there are two classes, earthly and heavenly, an the heavenly class is the one associated with the 144K.

  JC