Wisdom Personified

by ozziepost 25 Replies latest watchtower bible

ozziepost

The next time a householder says to you: “Everyone has his own interpretation of the Bible”, how will you respond? Perhaps you will use the suggestion from the Reasoning Book (page 65) “You might reply: ‘And obviously not all of them are right’. You might add: ‘Twisting the Scriptures to fit our own ideas can result in lasting harm’ “
With this in mind we can read in paragraph 17 of this week’s Watchtower study article (January 1, 2001, page 12):

“Jesus is a wonderful example of someone motivated by love. In his pre-human existence, he loved his Father and he loved mankind. As the embodiment of wisdom, he said ” I came to be beside [Jehovah] as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.” (Proverbs 8:30)”
Notice that the name Jehovah is in brackets; it has been added. Why? Because the earliest manuscripts do not say it. Wisdom in this chapter is being personified. So does it refer to Jesus? The Trinity brochure states (page 14):
“While the term “Wisdom” is used to personify the one whom God created, most scholars agree that it is actually a figure of speech for Jesus as a spirit creature prior to his human existence.”
However, not all scholars agree. Note the footnote comments from the best-selling New International Version of the Bible (Study Bible):
“Therefore these verses should not be interpreted as a direct description of Jesus…… Here, wisdom is an attribute of God involved with him in creation.”
Notice, too, that the Trinity brochure quotes another translation ” was ‘by his [God’s] side, a master craftsman.’ (Proverbs 8:30, JB)” Here once again we see that the name of God has been inserted, in brackets.
As justification for this interpretation, the Insight volume (it-2 pages 52-3) states:
“What is recorded concerning the Word in the Scriptures fits remarkably the description given at Proverbs 8:22-31. There wisdom is personified, represented as though able to speak and act. (Pr 8:1) Many professed Christian writers of the early centuries of the Common Era understood this section to refer symbolically to God’s Son in his prehuman state.”
There is a “however” though. It follows:
“It is true that in Hebrew, which assigns gender to its nouns (as do many other languages), the word for “wisdom” is always in the feminine gender.”
In support of the teaching from the publications, the above Insight book goes on to say:
[It] “would not rule out wisdom’s being used figuratively to represent God’s firstborn Son”
“Wisdom is manifest only by being expressed in some way. God’s own wisdom was expressed in creation (Pr 3:19, 20) but through his Son. (Compare 1Co 8:6.)”
This must mean then that what is stated in the Watchtower is interpretation. It could be right in the interpretation, but it is still interpretation. What we do know of Proverbs chapter 8 is that it is a hymn describing wisdom’s role in creation.
Finally, to those who cling to the interpretation that it refers to Jesus, please refer to verse 21:
“to cause those loving me to take possession of substance; and their storehouses I keep filled”
(“bestowing wealth on those who love me and making their treasuries full.” – NIV)
Should this be taken then to mean that you will be materially rich in this system of things?
Ozzie (who likes people to say what they mean and mean what they say)
MacHislopp

Hello Ozzie,
sorry for catching this one rather late.
I'll examine and give my opinion another day...!
Good material for thought.
Agape, J.C. MacHislopp
accuracy

I don't understand the point of this post. From the earliest days of the Church, Jesus Christ has been associated with the figure of Wisdom at Proverbs 8:22. For example, Justin Martyr (AD 110-165) wrote in his Dialogue With Trypho, about Christ: "That Christ being Lord...and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at trhe bush...and as it is written in the book of Wisdom, 'The Lord created me the beginning of His ways for His works. From everlasting he established me in the beginning, before He formed the earth'....The Scripture has declared that this Offspring was begotten by the Father before all things created."
Many other faith professions, not just Jehovah's Witnesses, have associated Proverbs 8:22 with Jesus in his prehuman existence.
"But to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, he is Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." -- 1 Corinthians 1:20, Barclay.
The grammatical gender of the Hebrew word is irrelevant here, since the Greek word for "wisdom" (sophia) at 1 Corinthians 1:20 is also feminine, yet Paul clearly applies it to Christ.
Gopher

Yes what is stated in the Watchtower is interpretation. We need context.
I guess what persuades me that the "wisdom" of Proverbs 8 is not a mere quality is the statement in verse 22, "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his acheivements from long ago".
If wisdom, the quality, were "produced" at a certain stage, it would imply that at some point Jehovah didn't have the quality of wisdom, that he had to create it.
It seems more straightforward to believe that he created an individual who would be a container of his wisdom.
Gopher
outnfree

Welcome, Accuracy.

Perhaps you'll do us the honor at some point by telling us your story on the thread Hello, hello, hello at the Personal Experiences forum, because I find you hard to read:
Are you a JW? If so, quoting a text that states that Jesus appeared as the light in the burning bush and as an angel to prove that Jesus=Wisdom might put you on shaky groud with the WTS. JW's teach that it while it was certainly Jehovah's angel who spoke to Moses at the burning bush, and Jehovah's angel who visited Abraham and spoke to Gideon as well, they do NOT teach that these angels were Jesus in his pre-human spirit existence because that would tend to make one think that Jesus=Yahweh because the humans equated the messenger with Yahweh Himself.
If you are a Christian of another sort, what brings you here?
Anyway, Oz, I'm not sure what to think about Wisdom being Jesus. I have read an interesting book that posits that Jesus was a supernaturally conceived human being, anointed and existing from long ago only in the sense that ALL of God's plan existed from long ago. Really, only this passage from Proverbs 8 and the Scripture cited by Accuracy and, perhaps, Colossians 1:15-17, prevent me from favorable considering the author's viewpoint.
I am interested to see what others will post on this subject.
outnfree
(loving those "Aussie" lessons and wishing I could be at your piss up! Also, loved "Rotten Review"! )
pomegranate

"But to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, he is Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." -- 1 Corinthians 1:24, Barclay.

The topic of context should always decide what is meant by a single verse. Taking that one verse and saying that it proves Christ is wisdom is taking the verse out of the context, a very common practice.
The context of the above is the Apostle Paul counseling the Corinthian congregation against divisions and the contrasts between worldly wisdom and the spiritual wisdom. Worldly wisdom is shown as fleeting and foolishness, while faith in Christ is wisdom and power for the ones who believe in Him,especially in a congregation that was being divided along the lines of Jew and Greek.
The wisdom and power of God is the unifying belief in Christ.
Why would Paul in a context of counseling against divisions in the early congregation, all of a sudden change his context to proving Christ is wisdom? He doesn't. His reason for writing was to stop divisions.
So it is not Christ that is being called the power of God and the wisdom of God here, but rather the Jew and the Greek (them which are called) who fully accept Christ because it would give them the Christ like wisdom and power of God to keep a congregation from being divided.
Mind you, Christ for a certainty has all the attributes of God ie Love, Wisdom, Power and Justice, but that is not what is being discussed here. It's how to keep the Corinthian congregation intact
under the advent of divisions. Drop the worldly wisdom, accept the spiritual wisdom (belief in Christ). Become empowered and wise through belief in Christ. That is power. That is wisdom. Then, you'll have a nice tight undivided congregation.
JW's teach that it while it was certainly Jehovah's angel who spoke to Moses at the burning bush, and Jehovah's angel who visited Abraham and spoke to Gideon as well, they do NOT teach that these angels were Jesus in his pre-human spirit existence because that would tend to make one think that Jesus=Yahweh because the humans equated the messenger with Yahweh Himself.
I have a problem with the above understanding. The Bible says it was YHWH who talked to Moses NOT an angel...
Ex 3:2-4
2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, "I will go over and see this strange sight--why the bush does not burn up."
4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!"
Moses saw the angel, but heard YHWH. What is so hard to understand about that?
Does anybody else here have a problem with understanding that both an angel and the voice of YHWH came from the bush? In other words, as verse two says, the angel of the LORD that Moses SAW, was the one doing the burning bush visual thing, and YHWH's voice came from within the bush, doing the talking thing. Example:
If Satan could use a serpent to talk through to Eve, and we know the serpent wasn't Satan, but it WAS Satan talking, do you think God in His power could have used a burning bush angel as the visual to talk to Moses through, as the same type of tool Satan used.
By human terms: Ventriloquism.
pomegranate
ozziepost

G'day all, and thanks Mac, accuracy, Gopher, outnfree and pomegranate for your thoughtful posts.
Far be it from me to add to what you say but I would like to make a couple of comments.
accuracy said
I don't understand the point of this post.
I'm sorry if I wasn't able to make it clear. Perhaps I could refer to a statement made late (a little too late?)in the post
what is stated in the Watchtower is interpretation. It could be right in the interpretation, but it is still interpretation.
This teaching on the identity of Wisdom is an example of what is found so often in Watchtower publications. Many things are open to interpretation, but the Borg gives an opinion as if it has the weight of revealed truth, 'set in concrete' as it were.
I'm a little surprised by your use of the quote of Justin Martyr but outnfree's comments are apropo.
pomegranatelove your moniker. I have very pleasant memories of eating pomegranates.
Cheers,
Ozzie
Freedom is not having to wear a tie.
pomegranate

I have very pleasant memories of eating pomegranates.

Aren't they the greatest? :)
accuracy

The points I made were simple enough:
(1) Early Christian commentators as well as modern ones, do indeed apply Proverbs 8:22 to Christ. Whether their interpretation is correct or not, it is a fact that they have made the association.
(2) Paul also associates Christ with God's Wisdom. While context is truly important, the context of 1 corinthians 1 does not negate Paul's association of Christ with wisdom. As one of the sub-texts of the context, Paul is speaking of the specific and unique role of Christ in the salvation story, specifically his death as ransom. We cannot wrest Paul's direct relation in the text itself: Christon theou dunamin kay theou sophian. As if to emphasize the point, Paul revisits it in verse 30: Christo Iesou hos egenethe sophia hemin apo theou: "Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God..."
Before 'faith and belief in Christ' can be wisdom for the believer, it must be understood that Christ himself is an expression of Divine wisdom in the salvific event. No, this is not to say that Paul is discussing Proverbs 8, or even alluding to it. Just that he makes a similar application. For Wisdom in Proverbs 8 is also not mere mental ability, but creative act. For Paul, it is redeeming act.
pomegranate

it must be understood that Christ himself is an expression of Divine wisdom in the salvific event.

Fully agree here. That wisdom would be the Father's wisdom.
1 Cor 1:24-25
Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
But, if this is to be taken literal, as many like to believe, what happened to that wisdom and power of God when Christ was dead? Did God's wisdom and power die too? Obviously not. Which is why I understand Paul here stating to the Corinthians that it is the comcept of belief in Christ that GIVES Greek and Jew "wisdom and power."
That is why Paul said this, contrasting again human and godly wisdom :
1 Cor 1:26-31
26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things-and the things that are not-to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God-that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."
Notice in the last part of verse 29, Paul describes exactly what that wisdom is, "that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption."
That is what that "wisdom" Paul is talking about that is given to the Greek or Jewish believer in Christ, righteousness, holiness and redemption.

So if I were to list what belief in Christ is for the believer as taken from Paul's words, Christ is my;
Wisdom
Power
Righteousness
Holiness
Redemption
For Wisdom in Proverbs 8 is also not mere mental ability, but creative act.
Usually 1 Cor. 1:24 and Proverbs 8:22 are tied together by those who profess Christ created. Is this what you are alluding to by saying "creative act?"
pom

Wisdom Personified

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