No longer a need for a mediator?

by ianao 36 Replies latest watchtower bible

ianao

Hello All. (Sorry to interrupt your peaceful day).
I just had an interesting talk with a JW friend of mine. During this talk I was explaining to him why I was reluctant to be baptised a JW. We got into many lengthy discussions on various topics.
One thing we discussed was Jehovah (duh!) My point to him was, he as a JW was so caught up in Jehovah, that he forgot about the WAY to Jehovah i.e. Jesus. He was always doing this for Jehovah and doing that for Jehovah's favor, and many many things about Jehovah all of the time. As a matter of speculation, I would not be surprised if the only time Jesus is mentioned are in discussions of the FDS. He talks about praying to Jehovah, and having a relationship with Jehovah. Jesus just seems to be OUT OF THE PICTURE.
After confronting him on this, his response to me was that Jesus was an example for us to follow, and Jehovah was the ultimate judge. He also insinuated [sorry, bad spelling] that man no longer needed a mediator between God. i.e. Jesus was no longer the mediator.
What gives? The scriptures say that Jesus is the mediator between God and men. He also said that nobody went to the Father but THROUGH him, so how can he not be a mediator? Is this his dual class belief (i.e. annointed vs. non-annointed) manifesting? How could he say such things?
Anyone's thoughts, foresight or even speculation would be greatly appreciated.
-ianao
Edited by - ianao on 9 January 2001 18:3:54
waiting

Hey ianao,
He also insinuated [sorry, bad spelling] that man no longer needed a mediator between God. i.e. Jesus was no longer the mediator.
Even by WTBTS standards, his insinuation was wrong. If their current teaching hasn't changed, I think it goes like this:
Jesus is mediator of the new legal covenant with the 144,000 (little flock going to heaven). Jesus is not the actual mediator to the rest of us (great crowd to stay on earth). However, Jesus is still the King and High Priest, and as such offered up a ransom for all of us.
We, the great crowd, still pray "through" Jesus to Jehovah because he's our High Priest and King. But he' not our "legal" mediator as he is with the 144,000.
As long as mankind is imperfect - they cannot approach a perfect God without a mediator. According to the WTBTS - they are God's Only Channel to Mankind - not Jesus.
That is my understanding of their teaching. I'm at work so can't do any further checking for you. But there are several scriptures involved and different translators do it a "bit differently" from the NWT.
1 Tim 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God an men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all......(this is) what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times. (bold added)
I think this is one area of dispute. Other translations use all men.
I never realized that the WTBTS taught that Jesus was not a mediator for the common man. Only the FDS, including the 144,000 are considered "a" mediator. The things you learn on the internet.....
On several different sites - the WTBTS articles explaining their teaching can be found. I believe on Shaun's Place. It's confusing at best to figure this one out.
Put the jw through his paces and make him prove his statements - logically - in his own Bible, not WT articles. It'll be good for both of you.
waiting
ianao

Hello waiting.
As long as mankind is imperfect - they cannot approach a perfect God without a mediator. According to the WTBTS - they are God's Only Channel to Mankind - not Jesus.
Interesting. I would assume that they consider themselves the mediator because of the separation of goats and sheep, and the condemnation of the goats for not feeding the 'least ones', and the praise of the sheep feeding the 'least of these my brothers'.
I have read these scriptures regarding the FDS, and accompanying parables, and I can see where anyone who reads and comprehends this scripture could view themselves as an FDS. I can see why the Russell did what he did. Interesting... *I* might have done the same thing, had I come accross these scriptures before anyone else. I wonder how many 'pastors' read this to themselves and suddenly received their 'calling' to start a church. :)
We, the great crowd, still pray "through" Jesus to Jehovah because he's our High Priest and King. But he' not our "legal" mediator as he is with the 144,000.
Fascinating. Where does the term "legal" come into things regarding mediators?
[b]As long as mankind is imperfect - they cannot approach a perfect God without a mediator.
Interesting... I never thought of NOT being able to "approach" God, I thought that was one of the purposes of Jesus. "none come to the Father but through me"...
That is my understanding of their teaching. I'm at work so can't do any further checking for you. But there are several scriptures involved and different translators do it a "bit differently" from the NWT.
I've noticed this much already.
I never realized that the WTBTS taught that Jesus was not a mediator for the common man. Only the FDS, including the 144,000 are considered "a" mediator. The things you learn on the internet...
Apparently the WTBTS does not teach that no mediator exists. I assumed that is what he meant when he asked me "how long would Jesus be a mediator"? Presumably from what you've said, he would no longer be a mediator after his death.
Things become clearer now. Now I understand why so many people have become devided in xtianity. Every other individual denomination seems to have stemmed from people assuming THEY were the FDS, and founding a religion. Now I see why the Pope puts himself in the position he does. Yikes!
All this coming from a singular interpretation to that passage. I can't imagine how many other off-shoot groups have formed from reading that passage and applying it to 'faithful and discrete disciples' instead of a class of followers. Let alone the other groups that sprang up out of simple disagreement with doctrine/teachings. (All this being speculative, of course.)
So it seems that one who THINKS he is an FDS, has most of what he needs to know to become an FDS. Now I REALLY understand why Russell did what he did. heh.
-ianao
RR

Actually, it's quite simple, the Society teaches:
Jesus is the mediator between Jehovah annd the 144,000. The 144,000 is then the mediator between the great crowd and Jehovah, NOW and then to the world during the 1000 year reign.
"People in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones"
ianao

Interesting. I wonder what the annointed do when they disagree with the annointed serving in the governing body.
-ianao
Gozz

RR,
I'm actually yet to see any explicit statement as to the FDS being mediator between the great crowd and Jehovah. I don't think that's official teaching. Do you have any references?
Thanks
larc

There are 5 pages addressing your question on the Main menue under the subject "Who realy is the FDS?"
RR

Gozz, the Insight on the Scriptures states:
"The apostle Paul declares that there is “one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all”—for both Jews and Gentiles. (1Ti 2:5, 6) He mediates the new covenant between God and those taken into the new covenant, the congregation of spiritual Israel. (Heb 8:10-13; 12:24; Eph 5:25-27) Christ became Mediator in order that the ones called “might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance” (Heb 9:15); he assists, not the angels, but “Abraham’s seed.” (Heb 2:16) He assists those who are to be brought into the new covenant to be ‘adopted’ into Jehovah’s household of spiritual sons; these eventually will be in heaven as Christ’s brothers, becoming a part with him of the seed of Abraham. (Ro 8:15-17, 23-25; Ga 3:29) He has transmitted to them the promised holy spirit, with which spirit they are sealed and are given a token of what is to come, their heavenly inheritance. (2Co 5:5; Eph 1:13, 14) The total number of those who are finally and permanently sealed is revealed in Revelation 7:4-8 as 144,000." - volume 2, page 362
Keeping in mind that it is taught that Christ is the mediqtor ONLY for the 144,000 and that the New Covenant is made ONLY with the 144,000, where does that leave the so called "other sheep" the "great Crowd?" The Society' states:
"While Jesus’ mediatorship operates solely toward those in the new covenant, he is also God’s High Priest and the Seed of Abraham. In fulfilling his duties in these latter two positions, he will bring blessings to others of mankind, for all the nations are to be blessed by means of Abraham’s seed. Those in the new covenant are first blessed by Christ, the primary Seed (Ga 3:16, 29), being brought in as associate members of the seed. Being made kings and priests by reason of the new covenant that he mediated, they will share in administering the blessings of Jesus’ sacrifice and of his Kingdom rule to all the nations of the earth. Christ’s mediatorship, having accomplished its purpose by bringing “the Israel of God” into this position, thus results in benefits and blessings to all mankind.—Ga 6:16; Ge 22:17, 18.
There are, thus, others not of the 144,000 “sealed” ones who also pray to Jehovah God in the name of Christ, putting faith in the merit of his ransom sacrifice. This sacrifice is not only for those for whom Jesus mediates the new covenant but also for all mankind expressing faith in Christ. (1Jo 2:2) These not in the new covenant also appreciate that “there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.” (Ac 4:12) They, too, look to Jesus Christ as their great heavenly High Priest, through whom they can approach God and through whose ministration they can get forgiveness of sin. (Heb 4:14-16) Revelation 21:22-24 points out that ‘the nations will walk in the light of New Jerusalem,’ where Jehovah God is the light and the Lamb Jesus Christ is the lamp."
Too often we have to read between the lines, in the older publications the thoughts are stated very emphatically, in the years past, the Society has had to resort to double-talk, because of the stigma it caused the JW's, as they realized that Jesus was not their mediator or that they were under the new covenant.
"People in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones"
ianao

Too often we have to read between the lines, in the older publications the thoughts are stated very emphatically, in the years past, the Society has had to resort to double-talk, because of the stigma it caused the JW's, as they realized that Jesus was not their mediator or that they were under the new covenant.

Makes since RR. Now I see why people put so much faith into this org. Again, what are they to say to those who consider themselves annointed? Do they just keep turning down people telling them "no you're not", or what? Very interesting.
-ianao
waiting

Hey ianao,
Do they just keep turning down people telling them "no you're not", or what?
The WTBTS is somewhat quiet on their observations about the "newly anointed." Elders, etc., would never be quite that blunt, imo. It's supposed to be a private decision between the person and God, elders consulted and told about the private decision.
Thus, comments from the friends might range from: "Well, she "says" she's of the anointed. But who really knows?"
"Well, it would seem that God would choose someone much older, more spiritual, don't you think? Only Jehovah sees."
"Well, she's had mental problems for a long time. If she was really of the anointed, you'd think she'd take better care of her own family, now wouldn't you? But, of course, only Jehovah sees her heart."
"Well, he's been strange for years. But it's up to Jehovah, not us."
Some brothers and sisters are kinder than the comments I've heard in the past about "new partakers." Generally speaking, new partakers are not taken very seriously. How could they? The number of the Remnant of 144,000 is supposed to be dropping, not rising. And even if those "fallen away" are to be considered - just how many of those anointed are unfaithful?
I'm sure RR has a more scriptural founding for the belief - I just know the chatter in the Kingdom Halls.
waiting

No longer a need for a mediator?

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