Dead Sea Scrolls published Jesus not There

by Satanus 24 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    The prep and publishing of the dead sea scrolls is finally finishing. They date from 250 bc to 70 ce. Out of a total of 52 volumes, jesus christ is not mentioned even once.

    _________

    Publication Of Dead Sea
    Scrolls Completed
    By Grant McCool
    11-16-1

    NEW YORK (Reuters) - The modern technology of e-mail and laser printing speeded up the publication of complete volumes of the ancient Dead Sea Scrolls, one of the archeological finds of the 20th century, scholars said on Thursday.

    The scrolls and fragments, providing insights into what the Hebrew Bible looked like 2,000 years ago, were discovered in caves between 1947 and 1956 on the shores of the Dead Sea and the decades since have been spent in painstaking and controversial research and conservation for their eventual publication.

    Professor Emmanuel Tov, editor-in-chief of an international committee on the Dead Sea Scrolls, announced the publication of 37 large-sized volumes at a news conference in the New York Public Library. He added that an additional 15 volumes were also ready for publication.

    ``Modern technology was very important to our team,'' said Tov, who has headed the project since 1990. ``We decided to make the camera copies ourselves, e-mail was absolutely necessary and I could not have done this in 10 years without e-mail.''

    Tov said he worked in a small office at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem with desktop computers and laser printers. Digital photography and multispectral imaging enabled scholars to read what was not previously visible on the fragments.

    The volumes of scrolls, translated from writings in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and Latin dating from 250 B.C. to 70 A.D., were published by Oxford University Press under the title ''Discoveries in the Judean Desert.''

    TRIBULATION

    ``I'm pleased to be able to announce to you that the publication of the Dead Sea Scrolls has been completed,'' Tov said in remarks that he will also deliver Monday in Denver, Colorado at a conference of the Society of Biblical Literature. ''After 54 years of excitement, expectation, tribulation, much criticism and a little praise, with the help of inspiration and even more perspiration, publication has been finalized.''

    Ten years ago, the end of the project was far from completion because the scrolls were under the control of a handful of scholars who were reluctant to share them. Under Tov and the Israel Antiquities Authority the pace quickened.

    Hundreds of the documents were found near the Dead Sea, the best known are the Qumran scrolls which were discovered in 11 caves near the ruins of an ancient settlement at Hirbet Qumran, 9 miles south of Jericho, which is now part of the West Bank.

    Reading of the scrolls did not shake Judaism or Christianity as some scholars had anticipated, but there was debate over the years over why they did not mention Jesus Christ. Tov explained that it was probably too early for Jesus to appear in the literature.

    ``Don't forget that all the scrolls written prior to the year zero could not have mentioned him,'' Tov said. ``So you are left only with the scrolls from zero to around 70. Then don't forget the New Testament itself was not written in the year zero or the year one, or two but the first writings were in the middle of the first century so it wasn't yet written up.''

    One of the scrolls, containing a Hebrew song of Thanksgiving, was dedicated in New York Thursday to ``Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani and the Great City of New York'' to commemorate heroism in response to the Sept. 11 hijacked plane attacks on the twin towers of the World Trade Center.

    ``The scrolls are of enormous historical value not only to scholars but to those of us who feel that history is prolonged, to give us the opportunity to look at the world through the eyes of people 2,000 years ago and that we have to look at the world in a new light every day,'' said Richard Sheirer, director of the mayor's Office of Emergency Management, accepting the scroll on behalf of the city.

    http://www.rense.com/general16/SCROLLS.HTM

  • Dan B
    Dan B

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but...

    The writings of Josephus contain brief comments about Jesus, but scholars theorize that those comments were added later by Christians trying to "stack the deck" in their favor. If this is true, than Josephus fails to mention him too.

    Hmmm.......

    Dan

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    DanB

    Yes, i read that claim as well. Where jesus is mentioned in josephus is supposed to have the appearance of out of context.

    First century secular history of jesus makes up about one 8& a half by 11 inch page. I don't know of the existence of any writings about jesus, using his name, during his supposed lifetime 2 or 6bc to about 33ce .

    SS

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    You're not wrong, Dan. Josephus lived in the area in which "Jesus" allegedly walked, talked, and performed miracles such as driving demons into a herd of pigs, curing lepers and the blind, feeding thousands of people with just a handful of loaves of bread, suffering death and rising again. All of these occurred while other remarkable events were allegedly happening, such as the many saints rising from their graves and walking into Jerusalem to chat up the residents there, the murder by Herod of all of the children under two years old in and around Bethlehem, the placing of John the Baptist's head on a dinner platter at Herod's banquet. Josephus, who was a world class historian, said not a word about these events, even though he lived and wrote in decades immediately following the alleged life of this "Jesus."

    It all seems to be a myth. All of the gospel stories are fictional, perhaps innocently and sincerely written by those who so badly wanted to believe that the messiah had come to earth in the form of a man they called "Jesus the Christ."

    The Dead Sea Scrolls are further evidence of the fictional nature of Jesus. If a person as remarkable as the one described in the gospels actually existed at some time between 0 CE and 70 CE, the scribes writing scrolls during that time would surely have at least mentioned him once. But, no. Not even once.

    Jesus didn't exist, in all probability. Those who wish to read the evidence for themselves and arrive at their own conclusions will find a great deal of it in links shown on the web page

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

    The relevant articles to look for there are

    "The Jesus Myth"
    "The Jesus Puzzle"
    "Fact and Fiction"

    as well as innumerable articles dealing with the historicity of Jesus in the "Historicity of Jesus" section of the Resource Directory; see especially the articles dealing with Josephus.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • accuracy
    accuracy

    Why would the Essenes (or whoever wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls) mention Jesus? He was not their man. They kept aloof from other Jews and accepted the primacy of the Law of Moses. Jesus would not have appealed to them. The same with Josephus, he had his hands full with other matters. But some scholars say that Josephus did mention Jesus, just not in the form in which his supposed statement is usually quoted. Not as the Christ, but as an alleged wise man.

    Jesus' public ministry was a brief one, a mere 3-3 1/2 years. Those who did not accept him as Messiah, or who deemed him but another failed revolutionary, had no reason to pay him any attention. It does not thereby follow that Jesus never existed.

    The New Testament does record Jesus' existence and his works. It was written and transmitted by people who were eyewitnesses to Jesus, or close to those who were. It was written and transmitted by people who had nothing to gain by "inventing" a myth of Jesus, but who had much to lose.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    accuracy

    The gospels were written 20-70 yrs or longer after the fact. Why did they wait so long to write about the greatest man doing the most important things ever? Today when something important is done, all the details are recorded in audio, video and print. God was a bit slack with his inspiration back there, wouldn't you say?

    SS

  • Moxy
    Moxy

    i received this news item on a JW mailing list too and was rather surprised by tov's statement:

    "Don't forget that all the scrolls written prior to the year zero could not have mentioned him,'' Tov said. ``So you are left only with the scrolls from zero to around 70. Then don't forget the New Testament itself was not written in the year zero or the year one, or two but the first writings were in the middle of the first century so it wasn't yet written up."
    besides stating the blindingly obvious, which is understandable for a statement to the press, he appears to imply jesus was born in year zero, which is both nonexistent and off by several years.

    --

    It was written and transmitted by people who had nothing to gain by "inventing" a myth of Jesus, but who had much to lose.
    oh, please.

    mox

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    accuracy

    Some fragments were written in greek. Some dated up to 70ce. John the baptist had essenian flavor. Some say both john and jesus were from that background. Yet jesus isn't mentioned.

    SS

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Accuracy,

    Josephus's hands were full with other matters, and that's why he had nothing to say about Jesus? What matters were more important to Josephus than the alleged miraculous feeding by Jesus of 5,000 on the shores of the Sea of Galilee (Mark 6:32-42), and then of the 4,000 another time (Mark 8:1-9)—if it really happened?

    * http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/Loaves_and_Fishes.htm

    What story was more interesting than the one about the head of John the Baptist being brought on a platter to Herod’s banquet (Mark 6:1-29)—if it really happened?

    * http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/john_baptist.html

    Does anyone really believe that Josephus had so many “other matters” of such consequence to report on that he didn’t have time to write about the alleged murder of the innocent children under two years of age in Bethlehem and its suburbs (Matthew 2:16)—if it really happened? How many hundreds of babies might this have been, and still you think Josephus was more concerned with other matters that he just didn't want to take a few minutes to scribble a comment about Herod's murders? That's ridiculous. Josephus commented on a great many matters that were extremely mundane concerning Herod, so surely he would have mentioned the head of John the Baptist and the murders of the many babies, don't you think--if these things had really happened?

    Few things that Josephus reported in his voluminous works were more important than the miraculous feedings, the head on the banquet platter, or the mass murder of the babes. If anyone disagrees with this statement, let them read the works of Josephus and tell the forum what “other matters” were more important, and also explain why Josephus reported on such a great many matters of extreme banality, but yet didn’t see fit to report on the events mentioned above. The reader will find the works of Josephus at

    * http://members.aol.com/fljosephus/home.htm

    Who can believe that Josephus wouldn’t think his readers would be interested in hearing about all those corpses which rose from their graves and walked into Jerusalem and chatted up the folks there (Matthew 27:45-53)—if it really happened?

    It was not just the historian Josephus who seemingly ignored Jesus; no other historian of the first century knew anything about Jesus or the events described in the Bible. It is not possible that a man allegedly so remarkable as Jesus, who allegedly did so many astonishing things, would have gone unnoticed by historians.

    It is begging the question say that the gospel writers were historians, for their work is the very thing in dispute. The gospel writers don’t identify themselves. Mark based many of his Jesus stories on events in the lives of Old Testament figures (Moses, Elijah, Elisha, David), and on acts by YHWH; the gospels of Matthew and Luke are largely plagiarized versions of Mark. These writers were no more than propagandizers for a man who never existed—a man, however, they actually thought existed and who was the messiah the Old Testament prophesied was coming. Since they thought that the Old Testament stories were foreshadowings of events in the life of the coming savior, they made sure that the stories they made up matched what they thought were the prophecy stories about the messiah.

    The gospels are fiction; the historical Jesus never existed.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Well, the reading I've done indicates that Josephus may well be the source for the mention of Jesus, but that it was indeed added to by others. Further, the mention of Jews being thrown out of Rome during the reign of Claudius in connection with a certain "Crestus" is usually seen as refering to Christ and Christian Jews.

    Why didn't the apostles write about Jesus sooner? They expected his immenient return, therefore, there was no need to write about him. The Q source, if it existed. would have a much earlier date than the mid 60's given for Mark, which is the earliest gospel.

    Jesus was just one of many itinerant preachers and miracle workers in Judea, why would he be mentioned when the others are not?

    The Jesus we read about in the gospels is the Jesus seen through the eyes of faith.

    I've still not read any serious scholars who doubt that Jesus actually lived.

    YERUSALYIM
    "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
    [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit