Who really killed Goliath?

by nvrgnbk 25 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  nvrgnbk

  Who really killed Goliath? Before answering "David, of course" look at 2 Samuel 21:19.
• 

  lfcviking

  Interesting question. If your reading from the New World Translation then notice the name 'Goliath' is not cross referenced so it might be a different Goliath to the one David supposedly struck down.
• 

  Brother Apostate

  Depends.

  Which version?

  2 Samuel 21:19

  2 Samuel 21:19
  New International Version (NIV) Listen to this passage 19 In another battle with the Philistines at Gob, Elhanan son of Jaare-Oregim [ a ] the Bethlehemite killed Goliath [ b ] the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver's rod. Footnotes: 2 Samuel 21:19 Or son of Jair the weaver 2 Samuel 21:19 Hebrew and Septuagint; 1 Chron. 20:5 son of Jair killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath New International Version (NIV) Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
  New American Standard Bible (NASB) View commentary related to this passage 19 There was war with the Philistines again at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, ( A ) the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam. Cross references: 2 Samuel 21:19 : 1 Sam 17:7 New American Standard Bible (NASB) Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
  The Message (MSG) View commentary related to this passage 19 At yet another battle with the Philistines at Gob, Elhanan son of Jaar, the weaver of Bethlehem, killed Goliath the Gittite whose spear was as big as a flagpole. The Message (MSG) Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson
  Amplified Bible (AMP) View commentary related to this passage 19 There was again war at Gob with the Philistines, and Elhanan son of Jaare-oregim, a Bethlehemite, slew Goliath the Gittite, whose spear shaft was like a weaver's beam. Amplified Bible (AMP) Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation
  New Living Translation (NLT) View commentary related to this passage 19 During another battle at Gob, Elhanan son of Jair [ a ] from Bethlehem killed the brother of Goliath of Gath. [ b ] The handle of his spear was as thick as a weaver’s beam! Footnotes: 2 Samuel 21:19 As in parallel text at 1 Chr 20:5; Hebrew reads son of Jaare-oregim. 2 Samuel 21:19 As in parallel text at 1 Chr 20:5; Hebrew reads killed Goliath of Gath. New Living Translation (NLT) Holy Bible. New Living Translation copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers.

  2 Samuel 21:19King James Version (KJV)
  

  Listen to this passage
  View commentary related to this passage

  19 And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

  King James Version (KJV)

  Public Domain

  English Standard Version (ESV)
  

  Listen to this passage
  View commentary related to this passage

  19 And there was again war with the Philistines at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim, the Bethlehemite, struck down Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam. [ a ]

  Footnotes:

  1. 2 Samuel 21:19 Contrast 1 Chronicles 20:5, which may preserve the original reading

  
  
  

  English Standard Version (ESV)

  The Holy Bible, English Standard Version Copyright © 2001 by Crossway Bibles, a division of Good News Publishers.

  Contemporary English Version (CEV)
  

  View commentary related to this passage

  19 There was still another battle with the Philistines at Gob. A soldier named Elhanan killed Goliath [ a ] from Gath, whose spear shaft was like a weaver's beam. [ b ] Elhanan's father was Jari [ c ] from Bethlehem.

  Footnotes:

  1. 2 Samuel 21:19 Goliath: According to 1 Chronicles 20.5, Elhanan killed the brother of Goliath.
  2. 2 Samuel 21:19 weaver's beam: A large wooden rod used by a weaver when making cloth.
  3. 2 Samuel 21:19 Jari: Or "Jaare."

  
  
  

  Contemporary English Version (CEV)

  Copyright © 1995 by American Bible Society

  Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
  

  View commentary related to this passage

  19 And the battle is again in Gob with the Philistines, and Elhanan son of Jaare-Oregim, the Beth-Lehemite, smiteth [a brother of] Goliath the Gittite, and the wood of his spear [is] like a beam of weavers.

  Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

  Public Domain

  American Standard Version (ASV)
  

  View commentary related to this passage

  19 And there was again war with the Philistines at Gob; and Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim the Beth-lehemite slew Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

  American Standard Version (ASV)

  Copyright © 1901 Public Domain
• 

  Kaput

  Before you get too excited, Insight on the Scriptures V.1 pg. 984 states:

  A passage that has caused some difficulty is found at 2 Samuel 21:19, where it is stated: "Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite got to strike down Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like the beam of loom workers." The parallel account at 1 Chronicles 20:5 reads: "Elhanan the son of Jair got to strike down Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like the beam of loom workers."
  Several suggestions have been made for an explanation of the problem. The Targum preserves a tradition that Elhanan is to be identified with David. The Soncino Books of the Bible, edited by A. Cohen (London, 1951, 1952), comment that there is no difficulty in the assumption that there were two Goliaths, commenting also that Goliath may have been a descriptive title like "Pharoah," "Rabshakeh," "Sultan." The fact that one text refers to "Jaare-oregim," whereas the other reads "Jair," and also that only the account in Second Samuel contains the term "Bethlehemite [Heb., behth hal-lach-mai']," while the Chronicles account alone contains the name "Lahmi ['eth-Lach-mi']," has been suggested by the majority of commentators to be the result of a copyist's error.

  I'm tellin' ya, the Borg's got an answer for everything. (Well, almost everything.)
• 

  nvrgnbk

  Note the description of Goliath. It's the same as the other.
• 

  Mary

  The answer lies in two areas. 1 Chronicles 20:5 says: "And there was war with the Philistines again, and Elhanan the son of Jair killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam." This is the correct answer; namely, that Elhanan killed Goliath's brother.

  Second, it appears there was a copyist error in 2 Samuel 21:19 . According to Gleason Archer's Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties on page 179, it says,

  1. The sign of the direct object, which in Chronicles comes just before "Lahmi," was '-t; the copyist mistook it for b-t or b-y-t ("Beth") and thus got Bet hal-Lahmi ("the Bethlehemite") out of it.
  2. He misread the word for "brother" ('-h) as the sign of the direct object ('-t) right before g-l-y-t ("Goliath"). Thus he made "Goliath" the object of "killed" (wayyak), instead of the "brother" of Goliath (as the Chronicles passage does).
  3. The copyist misplaced the word for "weavers" ('-r-g-ym) so as to put it right after "Elhanan" as his patronymic (ben Y-'-r-y'-r--g-ym, or ben ya ' a rey 'or e -gim -- "the son of the forests of weavers" -- a most unlikely name for anyone's father!). In Chronicles the 'or e grim ("weavers") comes right after m e nor ("a beam of ") -- thus making perfectly good sense.

  Therefore, we see that 2 Samuel 21:19 had a copyist error and 1 Chronicles 20:5 is correct.

  -----------------------------------------------------------------

  And in case you're wondering, no, I did not write the above on my own....I ain't that smart.
• 

  betterdaze

  2 Samuel 21:19
  In another battle with the Philistines at Gob, Elhanan son of Jaare-Oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver's rod.
  
  And its parallel,
  
  1 Chronicles 20:5
  In another battle with the Philistines, Elhanan son of Jair killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver's rod.
  
  One explanation is that this is a different Goliath, a different battle, years apart. Goliath is more of a description for a giant than a personal name. The first Goliath was killed by David under Saul's reign, this other Goliath and his brother were killed by Elhanan under David's reign.
  
  Another explanation is that Elhanan's kill was only credited to David to enhance his royal reputation. The "brother" was added in later by copyists to "fix" the contradiction with the prior folk hero account in 1 Samuel.
  
  ~Sue
• 

  nvrgnbk

  Thanks kaput,

  I was aware of the comments from Insight. I find them to be lacking in weight.
• 

  Kaput

  I was aware of the comments from Insight. I find them to be lacking in weight.

  Most of us here do, also. It keeps the dubs happy, though.
• 

  nvrgnbk

  Another explanation is that Elhanan's kill was only credited to David to enhance his royal reputation. The "brother" was added in later by copyists to "fix" the contradiction with the prior folk hero account in 1 Samuel.
  
  Thanks to all. The above- mentioned explanation is the one I found most attested to in my research. Thanks Sue.

  You'll have to forgive me but I find David to be a manipulative, conniving scoundrel. He was a bad dude. It's amazing how often the org. refers to him a some shining example.