Do the celestial positions on BM 33478 help to prove Artaxerxes I's 20th year was 455 BCE? (For 'scholar')

by AnnOMaly 38 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    This is a spin off from this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/182714/4/Hubby-is-Researching-607

    Background

    For the past three years, Carl Jonsson has been critiquing Rolf Furuli's 'Oslo' Chronology in an interdisciplinary journal called Chronology and Catastrophism Review. The latest 2009 edition contains an article by Furuli attempting to defend his point of view and answer Jonsson's criticisms.

    Within the article, Furuli tries to re-date one of the problematic astronomical diaries (BM 33478) listed in Sachs and Hunger's Astronomical Diaries and Related Texts, Vol. I. He claims it fits 465/4 BCE which should be the 10th year of Artaxerxes I under his chronological scheme. If the astronomical positions on this diary really do fit that year, it would help vindicate the 'Oslo'/WTS notion that Artaxerxes' 20th year was 455 BCE instead of the established 445 BCE.

    This diary had been assigned to the year 441/0 BCE (-440) in ADT I, but Sachs and Hunger acknowledged it didn't fit that year well at all. However, they couldn't find a better match at that time. Not too long after ADT I was published, renowned scholars J. Koch, and later R.J. van der Spek, re-examined the diary and, based on the astronomical and historical information contained on it, reassigned it to the year 382/1 BCE - the 23rd year of Artaxerxes II.

    In contrast, Furuli believes that the astronomical positions support his year of 465/4 BCE. He says he searched for better matches in all the 3 Kings Artaxerxes' regnal years, but couldn't find any apart from 465/4 BCE.

    So do the celestial data on this tablet fit the year 465/4 BCE (-464/3) as claimed in Chronology & Catastrophism Review 2009, p. 34-5? Furuli's dates and suppositions are being used in the tables. I'm using SkyViewCafé (SVC) online to compare results.

    Results comparison

    Obv.' Lines 1, 2: Month VII ... Night of the 6th, last part of the night, Venus was above alpha Vir[ginis].

    Furuli's date

    Furuli's results

    SVC's results

    Do the results agree?

    Do SVC's results agree with tablet?

    Sept. 24, -464 (465 BCE), a.m. [1]

    "On the 24th September, at 07:00 [UT] [2] , Venus was 3º above Spica (α Virginis)"

    Venus - d. (declination) 5º55';

    Spica - d. 2º 24'.

    Venus was 3.5º above Spica, although the tablet doesn't give a specific measurement

    Yes

    Yes

    Obv.' Line 3: [.... the moon was] 2/3 cubit behind delta Capricorni, it was set to its northern horn.

    It's worth mentioning here that ADT I's transliteration for the beginning of line 3 is, "[.... GE 6 8 ? SAG GE 6 sin]" or "[.... Night of the 8th ? , beginning of the night, the moon], and there was a query about the '8.' J. Koch [3] says the date should be corrected to a '9' and this is the date Furuli uses.

    Furuli's date

    Furuli's results

    SVC's results

    Do the results agree?

    Do SVC's results agree with tablet?

    Sept. 26, -464 (465 BCE), p.m.

    "... the fit is perfect, because 2/3 cubit is 1º 20' and the moon was 1º 21' behind Deneb Algedi ... at 18:20 [UT]."

    Moon - RA (right ascension) 19h 56m;

    delta Cap - RA 19h 24m.

    Therefore, moon was about 32m = 8º or 4 cubits behind delta Cap.

    No

    No

    Obv.' Line 5: Night of the 17th, last part of the night, the moon was 1 + x cubits in front of zeta Tauri.

    Inexplicably, Furuli adds "(M1)" after zeta Tauri. M1 is the Crab Nebula which, astronomers believe, is the result of a supernova that occurred in 1054 CE. It can only be seen through a telescope and most definitely is not synonymous with zeta Tauri. Naturally, M1 would have been unknown to the Babylonians so why he uses it as a positional reference point is a complete mystery to me.

    Furuli's date

    Furuli's results

    SVC's results

    Do the results agree?

    Do SVC's results agree with tablet?

    October 5, -464 (465 BCE), a.m.

    "On 6 [sic] October, at 04:00 [UT] [4] , the moon was 2º 23' (1 cubit and 9 fingers) in front of ζ Tauri (M1)."

    Moon - RA 3h 24.5m;

    zeta Tau - RA 3h 15m.

    The moon was 2º 23' behind (not in front of) zeta Tau

    No

    No

    'Rev. line 2': [....] was balanced 6 fingers [above/below] [5] delta Cancri.

    The tablet is broken and the details on the reverse jump to the intercalary Month XII (XII 2 ). It was deduced that the missing object at the beginning of the line must be Saturn (see 'Rev. line 3' below and also Koch's article referenced in note 3). However, Saturn was nowhere near Cancer in 465/4 BCE so Furuli believes 'the Moon' should be restored at the beginning of the line.

    Furuli's date

    Furuli's results

    SVC's results

    Do the results agree?

    Do SVC's results agree with tablet?

    March 21, -463 (464 BCE), p.m.

    "... on day 8 of this month, at 17:06 [UT], the Moon was 16' above Asellus Australis. Six fingers equal 15', so the fit is perfect."

    Moon - d. 19º 43'; RA 6h 43m;

    delta Cnc - d. 23º 39'; RA 6h 19m;

    The moon was nearly 4º below (not above) and 6º behind delta Cnc.

    No

    Inaccurate

    'Rev. line 3': At that time, Jupiter was in Leo; Venus and Mercury were in Taurus; Saturn was in Cancer.

    It's common in the astronomical diaries to have a summary of rough planetary positions at the end of a month, and this is what we have here. However, Furuli chooses to compare the middle of the month - around April 2, 464 BCE [6] . The results are as follows:

    Furuli's results

    SVC's results

    Do the results agree?

    Do SVC's results agree with tablet?

    "Jupiter was in Leo"

    Jupiter was in Leo

    Yes

    Yes

    "Venus ... in Taurus"

    Venus was behind Taurus ('the Bull') and nearer what was known as 'the reins of the Chariot'

    Possibly

    Possibly

    "Mercury ... in Taurus"

    Mercury was very close to the Pleiades, designated by the Babylonians as a separate constellation - 'MUL.MUL' or 'the Bristle' and was not counted as 'the Bull'

    In modern terms, Yes.

    In ancient terms, No

    No

    "Saturn was in Virgo and not in Cancer"

    Saturn was in Virgo, not in Cancer

    Yes

    No

    To summarize:

    Furuli's results conflict with SkyViewCafé's in 3 out of 8 times. More importantly, SkyViewCafé's results conflict in some way with the tablet's details in all except 2 clear cases and 1 possible agreement. In other words, 5 out of 8 details are mismatches with 465/4 BCE.

    When we consider, in examining this tablet, how Furuli hasn't used first lunar visibility as a criterion to start the month, has apparently deviated from the very chronological scheme he is trying to propose, makes mistakes in calculating positions and where the true positions don't fit with those on the tablet, it should become evident that Furuli's claims of a 465/4 BCE match for BM 33478 are without any foundation whatsoever.


    Notes

    [1] Furuli begins Month VII at first lunar visibility on the evening of September 18 which would make 'night of the 6th' September 23/24. However, according to the calculations of three sets of experts, Parker & Dubberstein, Anderlic/Firneis and Lange/Swerdlow, first lunar visibility would occur the evening after on September 19. Thus Furuli began the new month a day early.

    Not only that, but working from Furuli's premises and using his chronological scheme, I reconstructed the Month I dates from 523 BCE (Cambyses' Year 7) to 423 BCE (Darius II's Year 1). Under this scheme, Month I of 465 BCE should begin at sunset April 23 and therefore Month VII should begin at sunset October 18. Thus Furuli appears to have broken with his own scheme and started Months I and VII a month early.

    [2] Furuli is using Universal Time (or GMT). The local time in Babylon is 3 hours ahead of UT or GMT, contrary to his endnote [9] on p.38 where he says "Babylonian time is three hours behind GMT." Therefore, it has to be noted that 07:00 UT corresponds to 10:00 Local Time, i.e. broad daylight when Venus and the stars were no longer visible. The reason why Furuli chooses broad daylight to compare night-time positions is a complete mystery to me.

    [3] 'Zu einigen astronomischen "Diaries",'Archiv für Orientforschung 38/39, (1991/2), p.102.

    [4] Again, the tablet gives night-time positions and yet Furuli chooses to compare them with daytime positions. 04:00 UT is 07:00 Local Time (sunrise was 05:57 LT).

    [5] It appears the scribe accidently missed out a word.

    [6] Furuli says "2nd April 463" but it's obviously another typo.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Anyone - please tell me if you spot errors.

    'Scholar' - you study this and follow the comparisons. It'll make better sense to you when you get the article, but it doesn't stop you examining the data now. I don't want your usual huff and bluster about it. If you disagree I want specifics.

  • bohm
    bohm

    Ann, it's allways a pleasure reading your post, but this in particular is a gem. I really hope Scholar has the guts to try to answer your question in the spirit it is asked, like a real scholar.

  • Ultimate Reality
    Ultimate Reality

    Don't feel bad for Scholar; he's just trying to provide comic relief for all of us. Not even he believes what he writes.

  • scholar
    scholar

    AnnOMaly

    Post 113

    Your post of criticism of Furuli is useless unless you have discussed the matter with him first and that is what I have always have asked you to do but you simply refuse. I cannot possible comment on something unless I have both sides of the story and have knowledge of the subject. So, in all honesty I have nothing to say about your criticism.

    scholar JW

  • wobble
    wobble

    Dear AnnOmaly,

    Thank you for bringing this to our attention,and for the effort you have put in to unravel the skein.

    For the un-educated (and at this moment in time- un-washed) could you please be kind enough to explain the ramifications of this, for example, would it upset say 539 B.C or any other date if Furuli (and the W.T) is out by say 10 years ?

    Love

    Wobble

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Thanks all for your comments.

    Wobble - Furuli and the WTS need 539 BCE to stay intact. The 'Oslo' hypothesis does nothing to mess up that date, but its aim is to at least provide enough wiggle room to allow for the possibility of 607 BCE being Neb's 18th year and 455 BCE being Artaxerxes I's 20th year.

    Interestingly, Furuli did discuss Strm. Kambys 400 in the article (the one the WTS uses to support 539). Despite its notoriety in being very problematic with numerous irregularities that have made scholars scratch their heads in puzzlement, Furuli thinks it provides "quite strong evidence for the year of 523/22 being year 7 of Cambyses" ( p.31). And yet paradoxically, the astronomical texts providing fewer or no problems for scholars he goes on to trash as being of 'little chronological value' or inaccurate retro-calculations that can belong to other years (and then, irritatingly, gets positions wrong).

    Neil - You think any public review or critique of a book is 'useless' unless the reviewer or critic has discussed it with the author first? Get real! Huff and bluster. Not interested. Get some knowledge of the subject; use an astro-program; prove me wrong.

  • scholar
    scholar

    AnnOMaly

    Your comments on Furuli are simply opinion and mishief-making. You clearly like Jomsson unable to work from the primary souces and you are untrained in the field of ancient astronomy so your 'personl research has not been independently teated. When you did canvas your views with Furuli on the Yahoo site you were debunked by Furuli as has Jonsson. Methinks you should stick to domestic duties rather than the heavy world of chronology.

    scholar JW

  • bohm
    bohm

    scholar: if you are so trained and knowledgeable, why are you so unable to answer a person who are only fit for domestic duties?

    and please keep to the posting guidelines.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Let me get this straight, because there is NO secualr evidence for his proposal of a different chronology, Furuli is trying to "redate" the astrological tablets to suit his and the WT chronology, correct?

    Like the WT did with the NT when they created their own bias work, The New World Translation, yes?

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